THE "PERFECT ( being horizontal ) TRIM" HOAX

[Eric Sedletzky]

In case you haven't figured it out yet... you guys are never going to convince each other.

That’s true.
At least some here acknowledge that there are at least 4 or 5 different kick styles and body positions that are completely acceptable in diving. Just because someone doesn’t lay in a skydiver position (notice I didn’t say flat, because they’re not) does not make them a stroke or any less capable or legit that anybody else.
There is a heavy tech presence here and they are into that sort of thing. But there are others here too and they are just as legitimate doing what they do too.
It’s a long fall when you’re that high up on a horse.
That was my point.

I think the @The Chairman said it best when he said “dive and let dive”.
If you want to know the most efficient and most streamlined position in hydrodynamic theory, then what you do is make your body long and straight with legs straight back, arms at sides or sometimes straight out in front of you (hard to maintain). You aim your pointed body towards the direction of travel so you’re like an arrow. There are several kick styles that can be used with this body positioning not just flipping your feet around doing a modified sculling thing with your legs bent up (notice I didn’t say “frog kick” because it’s not a true frog kick).
You want to pierce the smallest hole as you move forward through the water and any obstructions sticking out from your profile will affect your slipstream and slow you down. Not that it really matters to most people because most of them are casually cruising along looking at things so speed doesn’t matter, as long as they don’t crash and smash.
If you want to see the most efficient body positioning while moving through the water just look at a freediver. Scuba divers can learn a lot from them.

 

[Centrals]

In case you haven't figured it out yet... you guys are never going to convince each other.
I plan to be horizontal when needed and otherwise when I damn well feel like it.

Of course NOT.
We are not talking about cave or wreck dive.
And from my own observation 90% of recreational divers that I had met over last 20 yrs were using JACKET BC! BTW, I do NOT dive in our local water and have to travel to dive. And most of those divers were from overseas like I.
I had done quite a number of tec dives as well and do realize the differences in certain aspect between rec and tec. I never ever believe tec divers is better than rec divers, apple and orange.
I do not go around and telling people so and so. On few occasions some divers asked what I was using(BP/W) because they have never seen that before!
Diving is for FUN and it is ridiculous to suggest certain posture as matter of fact.
Enjoy the dive and just do not cause any damage to the fragile environment. A careless kick in whatever way is dangerous.

 

[The Chairman]

If you want to know the most efficient and most streamlined position

Streamlined isn't the issue. I don't move fast enough to worry about that. The only thing I worry about is the direction of thrust.

That's the problem with this discussion... it started out with someone casting shade on those of us who like to be trim. I just found out I'm a Nazi and a hoax for my proclivity to dive trim. It turns out most people don't even realize that "trim" is about an 8% elevation of the head over the butt. They denigrate what they don't understand.

 

[Celt]

Whatever works, works. here's my video while trim...

​

Beautiful video and not a single diver in horizontal trim. And they all looked like they were enjoying themselves.

 

[The Chairman]

Beautiful video and not a single diver in horizontal trim. And they all looked like they were enjoying themselves.

I certainly was both in trim and enjoying myself. But then, I was diving side mount AL 80s. Someone accused me of not having fun because of my trim. Dive and let dive.

I have never said or intimated that you can't have fun simply being in the water flailing to your heart's content. My point has always been that I have more fun being trim and neutral and my students love it too. Dive and let dive.

 

[pauldw]

Beautiful video and not a single diver in horizontal trim. And they all looked like they were enjoying themselves.

I couldn't bear to watch that video. Right off, I saw a manta and a moray that weren't trim!

 

[MichaelMc]

Two separate things are being conflated as 'trim':
- Balanced weight distribution: Neither head nor tail heavy. Allows effortless maintenance of any orientation, as gravity is not trying to rotate you.
- Horizontal orientation: Efficient for horizontal movement through the water, easier depth control and low work of breathing.

Having a vertical orientation to look around or float with the current sounds just fine, should it suit your fancy, as long as you are not kicking up the bottom, which you will be if you are close to it.

Having a tail heavy weight distribution, so being anything but vertical is hard, sounds like a disadvantage and a way to make life underwater harder (aside from commercial divers). Aside from taking no thought beyond sticking all your lead in whatever low pockets were provided.

The third thing being mixed in is pose:
Legs and arms in 'resting frog kick pose' or outstretched in high speed streamlined Superman flutter swimming pose is also separate from weight distribution and body orientation. Though once you stop that high speed swimming, gravity and any weight distribution other than balanced will impose their will on your orientation.

I strive for a balanced weight distribution and am usually in a resting frog pose, with horizontal orientation, as I'm loitering about the reef at low speeds or paused looking at things, usually under me. Frog kick lets me back up and turn to orient to something more easily than flutter does. Using flutter to hold position for a close examination of a crab in surge would be interesting and much more work than frog kick.

To move fast, I'll go for flutter with arms outstretched. To check all around me, I'll twist to vertical.

But most of my movement is horizontal, idling along and pausing looking at things. When paused, gravity is not trying to rotate me, so I just hover effortlessly in the orientation I had, usually horizontal. Until I give a little kick to turn or move some for a better look, or to move on.

Always having a horizontal orientation is not the point. Being able to choose, from moment to moment, is the point, and not having to fight gravity to keep it.
And not destroying the vis or the sea life for the rest of us because of your choice.

I don't see fish swimming with their body turned broadside to their direction of movement through the water....

 

[ginti]

Inside a cave or wreck YES otherwise it is debatable.
When on horizontal position my eyes are looking down. And if I have to see where I am going the only way is to lift my head. As a human being it is NOT natural because it cause stress on the neck. Our body has been designed to stand up and look forward.
On decompression stop that is another story because you are going no where and usually there is nothing to see around you in blue water. All I have to do is stay eye contact with my buddy, with occasional signaling to ascend to next stop or whatnot, and check the time so I can look down most of the time.
Do whatever way you prefer.

This is exactly how I dive. Trim aligned with the direction of movement when I move in no currents, and then I use whatever I want to look at things and to have fun.

By the way, even when I am always horizontal (almost flat caves) I never feel any stress on the neck...

 

[Centrals]

By the way, even when I am always horizontal (almost flat caves) I never feel any stress on the neck...

Not a chance for me!
It is just not natural for my neck.


I thought this topic has been dealt with yrs ago.

 

[ginti]

Not a chance for me!
It is just not natural for my neck.


I thought this topic has been dealt with yrs ago.

I was not here probably. Anyway, for sure our neck didn't evolve for that position, and I also believe that many individual factors probably play a role here...