To those considering an OW class...

[Hank49]

From the perspective of someone still new ... I think the current OW class structure is about right to get someone into diving. By that I mean interested and capable of making a decision about being willing to commit to it or not. But now that I am addicted I wish that I had a way to accelerate my learning, and in a safe way. A REAL class. And even reading the books for the AOW classes SSI does, I have seen very little that my (excellent) instructor did not already teach, or that was not stated repeatedly here.

Being a realist, I see no hope for a better OW class standard. But a real AOW class, or should I say OW2, would be very nice. As it is I probably have much better skills than most people with 15 logged dives because for each of those I probably have another session in the pool practicing. But I know that I have so much to learn, and although reading SB posts helps it just can't substitute for good ole face time.

You make a good point, I think. You're one of the minority that probably will stay in diving and continue with training and skill development. As you stated, many take the course and never commit or continue.
One point to consider.....whether one is a "certified diver" with bad skills, or one is a "dive in training" taking a long extensive course while doing open water dive training, he/she will still plow up the bottom and kick staghorn coral until he/she learns buoancy control.

 

[BiggDawg]

Wow, is this a common theme on this board!
Is this, like, the 50th thread with the same theme?

The same logic can be applied to driver's licenses, medical degrees, and pilots.
I don't want others to drive with my 16-year-old. I really don't want to fly with the newest pilot. And, please please, please don't let my surgeon be the newest guy in the clinic...

But, the basic driver's license, pilot's license, medical qualification, [insert your own example here] is the bare minimum as established by the reputable accrediting agencies to begin on the long road toward perfection. Every one was new, once, be they diver or driver, pilot or surgeon.

The OW certification was never meant to create a perfect diver. It only means that the diver no longer needs an instructor or divemaster holding his (or her) hand to descend and ascend. The only way a diver gets better is by diving, and the 12 foot deep pool will not do much to prepare a newbie for a 30 foot (or 90 foot) dive (or emergency ascent), past what is currently being done.

All of the classes in the world won't make a lousy diver, or one who is careless, a better diver. We don't need the Scuba Police (ala Quebec or parts of Europe) telling people that they cannot dive without more certifications; but we do need divers following what was pounded into my OW class from the beginning: "Dive only within your limits, experience, and training. Know your limits."

After that, it is a matter of experience and practice. The surgeon did his first operation on some one. The pilot solo-ed, then carried passengers (as did my 16-year old ). Let 'em get certified, so they can get experience and get better, to be the divers they need to be.

If the course gets longer, there will be exponentially fewer people learning to dive. Then, the sport will shrivel. More divers means more support for dive sites, more people interested in preserving the oceans, more students for instructors, more passengers for dive boats, more people willing to contribute money for artificial reef creation, more demand for equipment so better technology, you get the point. It is good for the sport. As long as the newbie understands it is just the beginning, that they have a way to go.

"Why, when I went to school, we had to walk 5 miles to school in the snow!"
"Why, when I got certified, you had to be able to bench press a Volkswagen, and hold your breath for thirty minutes while treading water in shark-infested waters!"
Why does this discussion always start to sound like, "Now that I'm certified, I got mine. Every body else needs to jump through more and bigger hoops!"

For those who were certified in a University setting, don't compare that with current recreational requirements. The University had its own agenda in making a Phys Ed course rigorous enough for the academic community and academic credit, be it a course in Scuba or a course in archery.

BD

 

[FIXXERVI6]

Are you willing to pay the price? The cost will be more than just higher course fees. Gear selection will be reduced as manufacturers go under and those remaining will be forced to jack their prices up to cover the reduction in volume.

For me, the answer is providing the best instruction possible in the time I have. It also includes emphasizing that this is a starting point, not the end. Maintaining contact with students after class and providing encouragement to continue diving and learning is another means by which OW divers can gain skill. That's my plan. As for the industry as a whole, damned if I know.

I agree that the situation is bad, but the solution is not so simple as upping the standards.

I already pay the price, with the type of diving I like to do (caves) some of the costs are crazy high, partly due to volume of some of the products, it sucks, but its worth paying the high prices if the benefit is fewer, higher skilled divers.

As far as gear manufacturers like Zeagle, ScubaPro and the bazillion list of others, I don't think they would go under, they just wouldn't do as many sales, that doesn't always = out of buisness, what it may resault in if anything would be less garbage on the market such as the mares hub (yes its my opinion but whatever)

 

[cardinal]

The point is diving, like many sports, isn't much fun unless you've been given the skills to do properly and those skills can't be learned in two days.

Hear Hear - I learnt on a course that admittedly was not 8 weeks long (Friday night through to Sunday Night one weekend for the pool sessions, and another weekend at 2 dives a day) but the point is that all the instruction I could get - I want. Whether it come from an instructor during my OW, or dive masters after it.

I am not experienced - I know this. Hence, I has just signed up for my AOW and Enriched Air. The more training the better - both for myself and my buddy.

I need the info that may save my life, and help me have fun and get al the rewards from diving that I always hoped it would give me. So far - it is living up to the hopes....

 

[FIXXERVI6]

The OW certification was never meant to create a perfect diver. It only means that the diver no longer needs an instructor or divemaster holding his (or her) hand to descend and ascend. The only way a diver gets better is by diving, and the 12 foot deep pool will not do much to prepare a newbie for a 30 foot (or 90 foot) dive (or emergency ascent), past what is currently being done.[/quote=BiggDawg]

I disagree, I've seen plenty of carded divers that did need help ascending and descending, and a 12 foot deep pool allows a diver to gain experience and confidence, yes its not the same as a 30 or 90 foot dive, but would you want someone operating on you when they had only 6 months of schooling or 6 years of schooling, yes all new OW divers will need improvement, but there is no reason why training shouldn't be able to crank out a diver that does not plow throught the bottom damaging everything they get close to, I dont' care how good of an instructor you have the minimum pool time required is not enough to get the job done.

If the course gets longer, there will be exponentially fewer people learning to dive. Then, the sport will shrivel. More divers means more support for dive sites, more people interested in preserving the oceans, more students for instructors, more passengers for dive boats, more people willing to contribute money for artificial reef creation, more demand for equipment so better technology, you get the point. It is good for the sport. As long as the newbie understands it is just the beginning, that they have a way to go.[/QUOTE=BiggDawg]

As I stated in a previous post, maybe the sport as a whole is too bloated and thats part of the problem, you HAVE to have this volume to maintain such a bloated industry, also, what I want to see offered up is a CHOICE as I also stated before, this will not reduce the number of divers, but given a choice for better education, it WILL increase the number of OW divers not destroying these reefs they are interested in preserving, you said in the beginning its like beating a dead horse, well what about this horse being a choice, is that horse a little different?

"Why, when I went to school, we had to walk 5 miles to school in the snow!""Why, when I got certified, you had to be able to bench press a Volkswagen, and hold your breath for thirty minutes while treading water in shark-infested waters!"Why does this discussion always start to sound like, "Now that I'm certified, I got mine. Every body else needs to jump through more and bigger hoops!"[/QUOTE=BiggDawg]

I did jump through beigger whoops than most of the OW divers out there, and when I hit the water I noticed very quickly that my time spent was worth it, also, what if the option of extended training caused a small percentage of the divers that get cranked out to be better, that will INCREASE the overall diver awarness that hey, maybe I need more training cause joe over there took that extended class and he's rockin on.

For those who were certified in a University setting, don't compare that with current recreational requirements. The University had its own agenda in making a Phys Ed course rigorous enough for the academic community and academic credit, be it a course in Scuba or a course in archery.[/QUOTE=BiggDawg]"

Why can't I compare it to current requirements, I have the same card as everyone else that took an express NAUI OW class, some of the people I dive with also took classes in the university setting and guess what, even fresh out of class they hit the water and you can see very quickly the difference, its not super man compared to super newbie, but there is a difference, is it because they made it more regorous to meet a phys ed course, I think not, it was total time under water and being taught before being turned loose to open water, I never had to do push ups or swim double the speed of the agency standard.

What I'm getting at is not changing the dive industry as a whole, but have a shop or two step up and offer up a CHOICE, maybe over time with choices the market will push dive training to the longer schedules, but how can you even give it a chance when there is no option for it.

 

[Gradual Ascent]

When I got certified, I had some very experienced navy trained instructor for OW, with assistance during the OW from experienced cave divers. He made us do some pool drills that I chuckle over now.. But they served a purpose and I learned from them. I don't remember how long the class was but it certainly spanned several weeks of class and pool sessions. During my open water class in November in a quarry it actually was snowing out. :11:

When my wife got certified several years later the material was the same, but the emphasis was not so much on the navy seal type training..

We just went through OW cert with one of my kids, OWjr. Once again the material was essentially the same, and the content focus was similar to my wife's. The classroom and pool sessions ran a total of three weeks. Classroom was twice a week for 3 hrs each (18 hrs). Pool sessions were once a week for 3 hrs each (9 hrs) plus the OW checkout dives. The instructor for this class was also ironically a seasoned cave diver too. I thought they did great job, and so did my kid.

When deciding on a course my buddy who also had his kid go though the same class (attend the classes & OW too) we did not want a quickie class, based on his prior experience with one.

With all this being said, there is still no guarantee that any of us in my family have adequate training. There are lots of factors that go into how “good” you are after training: the instructor, the time you spend doing homework, doing the exercises, the natural abilities you bring into the class, willingness to learn etc. I’ll be the 1st to admit that I can always learn more, and always can use more experience, and more classes. I certainly look to dive with folks that are well trained for safety & their enjoyment as well as mine.

 

[FIXXERVI6]

When I got certified, I had some very experienced navy trained instructor for OW, with assistance during the OW from experienced cave divers. He made us do some pool drills that I chuckle over now.. But they served a purpose and I learned from them. I don't remember how long the class was but it certainly spanned several weeks of class and pool sessions. During my open water class in November in a quarry it actually was snowing out. :11:

When my wife got certified several years later the material was the same, but the emphasis was not so much on the navy seal type training..

We just went through OW cert with one of my kids, OWjr. Once again the material was essentially the same, and the content focus was similar to my wife's. The classroom and pool sessions ran a total of three weeks. Classroom was twice a week for 3 hrs each (18 hrs). Pool sessions were once a week for 3 hrs each (9 hrs) plus the OW checkout dives. The instructor for this class was also ironically a seasoned cave diver too. I thought they did great job, and so did my kid.

When deciding on a course my buddy who also had his kid go though the same class (attend the classes & OW too) we did not want a quickie class, based on his prior experience with one.

With all this being said, there is still no guarantee that any of us in my family have adequate training. There are lots of factors that go into how “good” you are after training: the instructor, the time you spend doing homework, doing the exercises, the natural abilities you bring into the class, willingness to learn etc. I’ll be the 1st to admit that I can always learn more, and always can use more experience, and more classes. I certainly look to dive with folks that are well trained for safety & their enjoyment as well as mine.

There is always the human factor, but if you take 200 divers, run 100 through an express class, and 100 through a long class, the 100 in the long class will turn out a greater number of divers that have higher skill, and I would bet a greater number of them move on to staying with diving.

 

[Gradual Ascent]

I agree ... and your bet is probably right too. More commitment was needed for the longer class ... so that probably will equate to more commitment long term to diving.

 

[jbichsel]

No problemo.

After my IE, I sat back and thought.....this is it??? Perhaps it was because my CD was awesome and made sure that we knew our stuff.

I always mention to my students that I have high expectations and if they want a class where they can skate through, this isn't the one.

I don't know about blaming the industry, I think the poor instructors are to blame. The standards are only as good as the person following them. I also put the blame on the consumer that feels they can get quality without putting in the time or the money.

What good instructor is paid what they are worth? I probably loose money teaching, but at least I love it! (Just bought a new digital projector)

After my IE, I thought pretty much the same. My CD always teaches as if candidates are going to get this one certain evaluator that used to pride herself on how many candidates she could fail. She was never able to fail one of his. She failed 9 out of 12 at one IE back in the mid 90's. The three that passed were Greggs.

I think that every cog in the clock has some measure of responsibility.

Society for the "I want it now for as little money and effort possible" mentality.

The RSTC and agencies for saying "Ok, we can meet that demand".

Instructors, Course Directors, Evaluators, MSDT's, Staff Instructors for not demanding better of their agencies and for settling for only the minimum.

I'm in the process of trying to set up a new program with a country club. They had a program in place with an instructor that lives in the area and teaches or taught (not sure of her current status) for an LDS (18 miles away, that's the closest). Evidently they talked a goodline but didn't back it up. No marketing, no advertising and from what I gather, never did anyhting they said they would.

That LDS is one that I audited for possibly doing my IDC with. After doing a Scuba Tune-Up, sitting in on academics and pool sessions for OW, and a Rescue class, I decided to drive to Texas and get my IDC from Gregg, my original instructor.

I spoke with the director of aquatics at the cc today and told her some ideas and her cool demeanor changed to being rather excited, but she did say that she has reservations due to her last experience.

The last day of my IE, I got a job offer from the owner of the oldest dive shop in Colorado. Should have taken it, but had an opportunity in Texas that I thought would work out. It didn't, we're back in Colorado, I'm setting up my own deals and going to be meeting with that owner again in September.

I teach within PADI guidelines, but there is a fair amount of leeway that can be used to up the quality of instruction. Thank goodness.

 

[jbd]

This is what an OW diver (IMHO of course) should come close to looking like after getting out of class. Forget the gear and the modified frog kick, notice this diver's orientation in the water - completely horizontal.

Thats not hard to teach in a standard OW course. In fact, its fairly easy to teach right along with all the other skills.