PePaw:
Well, I think it's time to ask if we REALLY want someone just considering getting into diving and an OW class to read this thread or not ?
Its one of the few ways that someone considering getting into diving can become an informed customer.
PePaw:
Seems it's just turned into another PADI bashing outlet. Something the author specifically states that he did not want to happen in his original post.
Once again, the PADI apologists confuse analysis and history that points to problems with “bashing.”
What the OP actually said was:
Loosebits:
Based on my experience with this board, I know the kind of arguments this post is going to generate. People will argue that today's standards are adequate. People will argue that it's all agencies so-and-so's fault or blame it on the instructors or blame it on the prospective divers as they should know better. I don't want to get into a debate as I'm still tired from the last one I had that I mentioned earlier so I'm going to do my best to simply not reply. This whole thing is nothing more than my opinion formed by what I've observed in the lakes, the oceans and the caves. And we all know what opinions are like.
This was his closing paragraph in a long post that specifically criticized programs that were shortened to 10 hours of pool time and that singled out SSI and PADI for removing essential items from their entry level course and moving them into a separately priced products.
The OP also said:
Loosebits:
The point is diving, like many sports, isn't much fun unless you've been given the skills to do properly and those skills can't be learned in two days. If they could, we wouldn't see the drop out rate we're seeing today (if every diver certified stuck with it, there would a year long wait-list for a spot on the boat).
Was that “bashing?” It’s as critical as anything posted later.
PePaw:
I'll say this, it's a busy hectic world we live in. The wife and I took from September through December just trying to arrange our schedules to take the course we did. If (like you fine folks seem to be advocating), we had to try and set aside weeks or months to do our training, well we wouldn't be divers today. Loving the sport, wanting to learn more and do more and yes putting our dollars into the hobby.
Frankly I think that longer courses serve several purposes, one is providing adequate training (of course), but another is weeding out those who lack the commitment (for whatever reason) to dive often enough to maintain their skills. If you can’t make a class that meets on the same night for eight weeks or so and you can’t break loose two weekend days for open-water work, I doubt that you will dive enough to maintain, not to mention increase, your skills.
PePaw:
Let's all face the fact that the world we live in is market (and numbers) based, and not try to bash an organization that at some point recognized that fact. It's those "numbers" that drive further product development and increase the accessability and AFORDABILITY for all of us.
This "market driven" anaylsis is the “big lie” at the crux of the matter, and its repeated often enough that people believe it. The fact of the matter is that the lie came first, and even after field testing of a 20 hour course yielded a negative recommendation, it was promulgated anyway, not because there was a customer demand for it but because some of the manufacturers wanted it and some of the shops wanted it. The OP even had his own version of the lie:
Loosebits:
This was developed as part of an argument I had with a dive master.
There has been a trend in open water diving classes (and diving education in general) to ease the requirements needed to certify the diver. Years ago the basic OW class was very extensive and took weeks or months to complete. Today OW classes can be completed in two days.
Many, including myself, would argue that a diver cannot be adequately trained to safely dive in an open water environment in only two days. So, why the change? Well my guess is it is all about market pressures (emphasis Thal's). The prospective diver generally has no clue what skills are required to dive safely and to enjoy diving so many times they will seek the out the shortest (and cheapest) class they can find (if this were not the case, there would be no market for the two day class). The local dive shops, in order to remain in business, must offer increasingly easier, shorter and cheaper classes by going with the agency that at the time offers the shortest class. If a shop decides to hold out, they will lose business to the shop that doesn't. That market pressure then goes up the supply chain to the agencies. If agency #1 doesn't offer a two day program, they will lose share to agency #2 that does. .
But the OP had sufficient experience and insight to understand that the “prospective diver” is basically clueless (a purpose of this tread is to provide some clues) and that what most “prospective divers” find is inadequate:
Loosebits:
I took my open water class from a university program. The agency that program used is irrelevant. As I recall, the program consisted of 15 hours of lecture and 21 hours in the pool. I'm not a dive professional so I can't speak to the current minimum requirements but I believe a standard program today is less than 10 hours in the pool. For the pre-certified, not being certified as a professional (e.g. dive master or instructor) does not mean that I am less experienced or have had less training than a professional. It simply means I've decided to go a different route in my diving education (of which there are many), not the route that is required for me to teach others.
Anyway IMHO, ten hours is simply not enough for the average new diver to learn and practice all the skills they need to become comfortable with their gear or their environment. This has led to time spent on a specific skill to be reduced or the skill virtually eliminated all together. These sacrificed skills often show up later as new classes.
You (PePaw) believe that you initial training was well done. I respectfully submit that you haven’t any basis to make that judgment, one way or the other. Several threads (e.g.
Minimum Proficiency) have addressed the skills that an entry level diver should master and I have yet to see a single example from a twenty hour class that even came close, except where the class was a refresher for a mossback.
It is not “bashing” to say that something is inadequate or wrong. It is not “bashing” to relate the history of a problem. And, at least in my opinion, it is not “bashing” to try and create a informed customer. The OP said it well in the first place:
Loosebits:
The point is diving, like many sports, isn't much fun unless you've been given the skills to do properly and those skills can't be learned in two days. If they could, we wouldn't see the drop out rate we're seeing today (if every diver certified stuck with it, there would a year long wait-list for a spot on the boat).
For the divers that do manage to stick with it, they will either need to struggle with a good number of dives or drop money on all the specialty classes that weren't even needed before OW became what it is today.
So please, spend the money now, take the longest class you can find or risk joining the crowd making room in their closet for the gear they'll never use again.
To all the experienced divers on this board who see a serious problem with the continual relaxing of standards, please help me resurrect the market for eight week classes.
