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Interesting thing about wrecks . . .

If they are abandoned, they belong to no one, and everyone.

Unless a munincipality, county, state or federal government or agency has taken jurisdiction over it, a ship wreck is free pickings for anyone who so chooses to do so.

I'm looking at it strictly from the legal aspect. Now the differing philosophies of whether or not one should remove artifacts from a wreck or leave them there for the "enjoyment and appreciation" of divers to come will be argued until the cows come home.

Argue all you desire, but keep it in civil tones and terms.

You may take this post as a "suggestion".

It would behoove you to heed a "suggestion".

The Kraken
 
TheFoggyMask:
While Mel Fisher sounds like he has a good thing going, although from his website he is still clearly in on the action for money and probably little else.
Aside from being dead for the last 7 years he's doing great.

As for "preserving" wrecks, there is a big difference between the different locations and types of ship. A steel ship in the Great Lakes is going to be around a while. That same ship in the ocean is going to be a pile of rubble much sooner. Same with wooden ships except with an accelerated timeline to oblivion. Look at accounts of diving the Doria. Artifacts that were not removed early are now pretty much lost as the ship has collapsed in on itself and it barely resembles the ship it once was. Next year it will be even worse than it is now. The idea of wreck preservation is somewhat limited in its scope. Do I think every diver should be diving with a crowbar to get every last piece? No. But it is a fact of life that the environment is eating them and I don't see anything wrong with divers removing artifacts from deep wrecks.
 
Sideband:
Aside from being dead for the last 7 years he's doing great.
LOL
 
TheFoggyMask:
, I really don't care about florida, the whole place is a mess because of old politics and the acceptance of treasure hunters. So you win on florida and I'm done talking about it.

Does it occur to you that there are other wrecks in the world? Things that aren't spanish galleons? In Washington they're trying to build a new 520 bridge over wrecks that have been deamed "culturally insignificant" when they're quite the opposite. In lakes in the pacific northwest wrecked ships and cars have items removed from them by souvenier hunters. .

Well I'm glad to hear that you are no longer talking about Florida. Sorry to hear that wrecked cars have items removed from them in the Pacific NW, I could care less.
 
Wreck preservation is not what I am talking about, again you're missing the point. Removing items from a wreck and preserving them in a museum is not looting is not antiquities is not taking items for your own benefit. If you find something significant on a wreck it is not yours, and you are not qualified to remove it. I am not talking about organizations, I am talking about individual people.

Just because an orgranization has yet to protect a wreck doesn't make it right to pull pieces off of it for yourself. Maybe instead of saying that there is no point in talking about it you could say why you personally are entitled to rip apart anything you find on the bottom. It isn't a race of you vs the legitmate preservation organizations to get something for yourself.

Dennis, nobody asked if you cared, and unless you have something legitimate to add, don't. What does it matter if the clown has a degree in physicis or making poodles out of balloons? Nor do I care if I really am arguing with a rocket scientist, that doesn't make what he says or what people do more right than what I say. Selling items from wrecks for personal benefit is wrong.

So now you tell me, why is it ok? How about you all take a turn at defending your position now? I've made a ton of good points and I still haven't seen anything compelling to the contrary. The public has and will fund the excavations of shipwrecks slowly and steadily. It is a process that will not be as quick as instant satisfaction of letting salvors do the work, while their fee is a modest chunk of the artifacts for themselves.
 
The following is an essay that I wrote a while back. It is a bit dated, but as this debate is also dated, having been going on with the same comments for a generation or so, some may find some points in it.

PeteJ


If I may introduce myself, I am a wreck diver with 25 years diving experience off of the Northeast US coast. I also have an amateur interest in marine history specializing in marine engineering technology.

I have been reading with some interest the posts concerning archeologists and sport divers over the past few days and would like to make some observations from my background and experience.

1) Many shipwrecks are found not by archeologists but by divers who then report them to the archeologists. I believe that George Bass has stated publicly that without the sponge divers he would never have located many of the wrecks he has spent his life working on. In northern European and American waters there are no working divers who can fill this role except the recreational SCUBA divers searching for shipwrecks.

Many of these divers have spent considerable amounts of their own time and money acquiring the skills and equipment to operate at depths that are exceeding 300 feet and at distances from shore reaching out to 100 miles. A large percentage of these divers are professionals with college and advanced degrees. These divers have spent many hours researching the ships and their histories before going out to these deeper and further off wrecks. They also write, publish, and present about these wrecks whenever asked.

2) Most shipwrecks in the Northeast US of interest to these wreck divers are of recent origin, post 1880 to 1900, and are of iron and steel construction. Wood shipwrecks are of interest mostly as a place to do lobstering, not for artifacts. Most of the steel wrecks in depths of 100' or shallower have been broken up as hazards to navigation. Metal wrecks are constantly deteriorating due to the salt water environment and storm/current conditions.

3) Since the late 1960's the power and size of commercial fishing boats has greatly increase. This increase in power has resulted in wood wrecks that used to be avoided now simply being run over and destroyed, even steel wrecks are being broken up. The wreck of the trawler Amagansett, sunk in 1960 off of North Carolina was fully intact during the summer of 1994, in 1995 it was found broken up and spread over several acres of the bottom, the remains of a steel trawl net were also found. Many of the captains of these large fishing boats have artifact collections larger than any wreck diver will ever collect. I have also talked to sport charter fishing boat captains and they all report that many "Hangs" just are no longer found. The result of the above is that wrecks that may be of significant archaeological interest are not safe in any area where commercial trawler fishing is conducted and that the option of leaving wrecks in situ may no longer be a safe option.

4) Not every shipwreck older then 50 years is of archaeological or historical interest.

5) Due to the large areas of water involved and lack of funding for enforcement, laws protecting shipwrecks are ineffective without the cooperation of the local sport diving community.

Realizing the above and the need to preserve the history involved with the shipwrecks. The State archeologist office of Connecticut has started talks with the local sport/wreck divers on a voluntary program to document and preserve shipwrecks of interest.

Beginning points for discussion are that shipwrecks can be divided into 3 broad categories:

Pre 1840 - These wrecks often are not documented and little is known about them. Wrecks in this category should be reported and preserved until they can be surveyed.

1840-1880 - These ships, if they are identified, are often documented to some degree. However, some archaeological data may be recovered and should also be preserved until the ships are surveyed. This survey does not necessarily require the supervision of a professional archaeologist.

Post 1880 to Present - These ships are most likely known and archival information can be found. This information can be as detailed as photos, builders plans, bill's of lading, crew and passenger lists. Therefore, no new archeological data is likely to be gathered. However, the wrecks may be of historical value and preservation would only be on a case by case basis.

The first and second category of wrecks would be recovered or preserved in situ if desirable and possible. Artifacts from the first category would be recovered under archeological supervision.

Artifacts from the second category would be documented by the divers and the documents submitted to the state for review. If the artifacts recovered are deemed to be of archeological or historical value the state would have the right to study them for a period of time, and purchase them for a negotiated sum (right of first refusial) or have them donated as a tax deduction. The diver would be credited with the recovery at any display.

Artifacts from the third category could be recovered at will if not otherwise protected. The divers would be encouraged to submit documentation on the wreck and artifact to be placed into a data base. Preservation of the artifacts and documentation would be stressed and a system for the donation of them implemented when they are no longer wanted.

An education system would be set up so that the differences and exceptions between these categories, proper documentation, and preservation techniques could be taught to the divers.

Professional salvage would be allowed only on a case by case basses. Commercial salvage of existing shipwrecks is not in the interest of either the archeologist or wreck diver.

The benefits to the archeological community would be:

A willing exchange of information between the archeologists and divers such as wreck sites, conditions, and research/artifacts already gathered.

A vastly increased search/survey capability of the bottom.

A trained reserve of skilled wreck divers with capabilities to dive in excess of 200 feet. In most cases the services of these divers would be available at no cost except perhaps for air/mix, boat, and food. I believe that since the USS Monitor has been opened up to the deep sport/wreck diver, supervised recovery of artifacts is being done at no cost to the government.

Benefits to the diving community would be:

Inclusion into the archaeological and decision making process.

Elimination of unnecessary regulations involving the wrecks of primary interest (post 1880-1900).

A greater understanding of any historical/archaeological significance of the wrecks dove and artifacts recovered.

I invite constructive comments from the people on this distribution list on the above proposal. I may be reached at Gilldiver@AOL.COM. All comments will be forwarded to the state/sport diver committee.

Peter Johnson
 
TheFoggyMask:
Wreck preservation is not what I am talking about, again you're missing the point. Removing items from a wreck and preserving them in a museum is not looting is not antiquities is not taking items for your own benefit. If you find something significant on a wreck it is not yours,
If the person taking items from the wreck has arested the wreck, the items are his. If the wreck has not been arrested and title abrogated, the items are his...
and you are not qualified to remove it. I am not talking about organizations, I am talking about individual people.
Many individuals are more qualified than you may imagine to remove items from wrecksJust because an orgranization has yet to protect a wreck doesn't make it right to pull pieces off of it for yourself. Maybe instead of saying that there is no point in talking about it you could say why you personally are entitled to rip apart anything you find on the bottom.

He may personally be entitled to rip a wreck apart because no one owns it
It isn't a race of you vs the legitmate preservation organizations to get something for yourself.

Dennis, nobody asked if you cared, and unless you have something legitimate to add, don't. What does it matter if the clown has a degree in physicis or making poodles out of balloons? Nor do I care if I really am arguing with a rocket scientist, that doesn't make what he says or what people do more right than what I say. Selling items from wrecks for personal benefit is wrong.

So now you tell me, why is it ok?
If someone is taking items from a wreck in the absence of laws contrary to the practice, it is okay because it is not unlawful
How about you all take a turn at defending your position now? I've made a ton of good points and I still haven't seen anything compelling to the contrary. The public has and will fund the excavations of shipwrecks slowly and steadily.
I am unfamiliar with the public funding of shipwreck excavation, in actuality many wrecks are covered over in hopes of one day being able to excavate when funding shows up, if you know of the public funding excavations please let me know where and when, so that I may use the source
It is a process that will not be as quick as instant satisfaction of letting salvors do the work, while their fee is a modest chunk of the artifacts for themselves.

a
 
TheFoggyMask:
And also, the morallity of the antiquities trade and things you find personally. Lacking a sticky in this forum, or any kind of ongoing thread about this, I feel like I have to say something. Forgive me in advance if my thoughts seem disconnected or confusing, but I have an intense for wrecks and the like and their preservation.

I know that most people who will ever see wrecks or encounter significant remains are probably going to be well trained individuals with a respect for what they find, or treasure hunters of not so many years past rampaging, especially around Florida and areas rumored to have gold. If you are ever to encounter a wreck or find archealogical remains you have to understand that these are not the days of Jaques Cousteau and Dumas, Dumas in paticular who pillaged a great deal of things from wrecks, these items do not belong to you and should not be moved or removed. Even if you plan on donating them to the proper authorities, who will most likely be appaled that you have removed the object in the first place, it is still not acceptable.

The treasures that lie beneath my have a slight monitary value to buy you some beer and a good story, but their cultural significance is enormous. The scourge of genuine achaelogists is the treasure hunter; those who hunt for purely personal gain and glory by finding gold and other values with mailboxes, fixtures to the propellers of a boat which shoot water downwards into the substrate. This completely destroys the context of the artifacts but leaving the valuables intact to be collected. It destroys wood and other delicate remains that are really the bounty to be had. But you as a recrational or technical diver can cause damage to the sanctity of a wreck and its culturally significant value.

I have aquantiances who are fairly well off DIR divers who frequent such sites and work at times with SCRET, Submerged Cultural Resources Explortaion Team. They work hard to preserve these sites, and often times sadly note the removal of significant portions of a wreck. Not only have you damaged historical evidence, but desecrated the site for future divers generations to come. Florida maritime history in paticular has taken incredible blows due to selfish actions as such.

Although by and large government officials have been convinced that allowing commerical treasure hunters to loot sites is unacceptblae, I'm sure that unscrupulous individuals feel the need for a souvenier or conversation peice from a wreck that, in their minds, has no owner but the sea. That wreck does belong to someone, it belongs to me and everyone else in a world much bigger than yourself. Keep your hands to yourself and take home pictures and memories, as clique as it is.

In short, it really burns my ***.
:lol:

OK MR.foggybrain, i was planning to ignore this thread, but since you started, i just want to ask you who you think you are to question the actions of honest divers? do you know the laws and regulations? have you ever been diving in New England?

Just for everyone to know this ***** H**E!!! went to a thread i started and question me why i took an artifact off a wreck, This is not for you to take he stated!!!

What does he knows who is he, the artifact i took was recovered from the wreck of The City of Salisbury "an Exempt Wreck" i posted this information, but well Mr. Foggy knows it all did no research before starting his attacks, and just to help him out lets pass some info to him, this is a broken wreck, no many people visit, the reason why is mostly broken is because for the safety of other ships the CG use dinamite to brake it and free the channel, so you should call them too and tell them "you have no right to do that and when they ask you why you can say because i thing is wrong and i'm very against this kind of practice.

Why not you do some kind of research before entering this or any other forums, i do not care if you give me your point of view, i respect opinions, if you just say to me i'm not agree with that practice why you did that? i will give you a kind answer and explain why to you, but when you tell me i have no right to... Is when i got mad, i guess you are the one with no right to say s**t to me, what i do is legal i dive every week, every time i visit a diferent site i respect the rules and i do my own research.

I think you should spend more time diving and less time reading and posting useless stuff in this board, if i was you i will read learn and enjoy the board, this is a great place to do that but looks like you like to start trouble, this place may not be the right for you, go out add a couple more dives to your log book, visit a few more wrecks get your DIR if that makes you happy and leave people alone.
 
All you're doing it saying legally they can. Legally people can get abortions and some people don't agree with that, as one example. I am totally wrong because it is legal? People salvaging things from recent wrecks from ships the own is not what I'm talking about either! Historical shipwrecks do not belong in your pockets personally. Nor do they belong in anitquities, hidden away in some basement somewhere. I'm going to start taking anything and everything I want form the ocean and we'll see whats left since apparently its ok because its legal and who cares about morality? Don't be surprised when you got to visit your favorite wreck and find nothing but a skeleton of a ship, if you're lucky.

I'm not trying to troll here, but apparently you've all got your minds made up and I'm wrong. You're all biting my head off, just nevermind. Its a lost cause and nothing has been accomplished four pages later.

Scubaboard 1 Foggy 0
 
TheFoggyMask:
All you're doing it saying legally they can. Legally people can get abortions and some people don't agree with that, as one example. I am totally wrong because it is legal? People salvaging things from recent wrecks from ships the own is not what I'm talking about either! Historical shipwrecks and wrecks things as such do not belong in your pockets personally. Nor do they belong in anitquities, hidden away in some basement somewhere. I'm going to start taking anything and everything I want form the ocean and we'll see whats left since apparently its ok because its legal and who cares about morality?


Morality has nothing to do with legality, we are a nation of laws. As to you being wrong because it is legal I am unsure as to what you refer to. You seem to misunderstand what salvaging from wrecks that are owned means, under law it is possible to arrest a wreck of any age, if one arrests a wreck from the 1600s, and the court agrees, one owns it. Feel free to take anything you want from the ocean as long as you act within the law. Your morals are your own, should you believe legally removing something from a shipwreck is immoral, though legal, feel free to abstain from doing so.
 
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