Treasure hunters!

[Tagerisatroll]

Interesting thing about wrecks . . .

If they are abandoned, they belong to no one, and everyone.

Unless a munincipality, county, state or federal government or agency has taken jurisdiction over it, a ship wreck is free pickings for anyone who so chooses to do so.

I'm looking at it strictly from the legal aspect. Now the differing philosophies of whether or not one should remove artifacts from a wreck or leave them there for the "enjoyment and appreciation" of divers to come will be argued until the cows come home.

The Kraken

I think Kraken might actually have hit the nail on the head, under martime law if the vessel is abandoned the first person to find it and recover salvage from it has rights to the wreck, the titanic is the perfect example, one party found it but had so much respect for the wreck they didn't bring anything up from it and a second salvage team came in behind them and brought up something and gained legal right to one of the most famous wrecks ever. Now mind you there has been an insurance company contest the salvage rights of some vessels that have been sunk for 150 years saying they never abondonded that cargo of gold only they didn't know where it was.

What really is an issue in Flordia is with the wrecks there is the state claims their law governs them and not the fedral maritime law. Now the state law is more restrictive, which cause more finds to go unreported for fear they'll be taken away, or lead to a protracted legal battle.

Many wreck sites are speciflicy protected under fedral and state law, against removal of any artifact, but new finds are still subject salvage rights, under martime law if its a nagivitable water way.

Anyway, its nice to have wrecks to look at, but if i see a broke beer bottle i'm going to pick it up. Six stitches in my foot is quite enuff for me, unless its on a protected wreck then i'll leave it be.

 

[sean22]

I think Kraken might actually have hit the nail on the head, under martime law if the vessel is abandoned the first person to find it and recover salvage from it has rights to the wreck, the titanic is the perfect example, one party found it but had so much respect for the wreck they didn't bring anything up from it and a second salvage team came in behind them and brought up something and gained legal right to one of the most famous wrecks ever. Now mind you there has been an insurance company contest the salvage rights of some vessels that have been sunk for 150 years saying they never abondonded that cargo of gold only they didn't know where it was.

What really is an issue in Flordia is with the wrecks there is the state claims their law governs them and not the fedral maritime law. Now the state law is more restrictive, which cause more finds to go unreported for fear they'll be taken away, or lead to a protracted legal battle.

Many wreck sites are speciflicy protected under fedral and state law, against removal of any artifact, but new finds are still subject salvage rights, under martime law if its a nagivitable water way.

Unfortunately this is only true outside state territorial waters (generally within 2 miles of the coast). The Federal Abandoned Shipwreck act off 1987 ceded the ownership of all wrecks within the states waters to the state(the only exception is military vessels).
Some state preservation agencies (Rhode Island)take a Totalatarian stance on private recovery and some states like Massachusetts and South Carolina take a more diver friendly( limited collection of artifacts) position.It's total BS but that is the environment we live in.

 

[Tagerisatroll]

...Many wreck sites are speciflicy protected under fedral and state law, against removal of any artifact, but new finds are still subject salvage rights, under martime law if its a nagivitable water way.

Unfortunately this is only true outside state territorial waters (generally within 2 miles of the coast). The Federal Abandoned Shipwreck act off 1987 ceded the ownership of all wrecks within the states waters to the state(the only exception is military vessels).
Some state preservation agencies (Rhode Island)take a Totalatarian stance on private recovery and some states like Massachusetts and South Carolina take a more diver friendly( limited collection of artifacts) position.It's total BS but that is the environment we live in.

There you go the feds adjusted maritime law to favor the states law. Check you local jurisdiction. Thanks Sean for the correction.

 

[PhotoTJ]

I have read this thread with interest. My thoughts are as follows.

1. WOW! The foggy mask cannot spell! That first post was almost unreadable.

2. I personally do not agree with most of maritime salvage law. If a ship is lost, and the owners cannot show that they are actively searching for it, then it should be up for grabs.

3. The states should not automatically have rights to a shipwreck, for the same reason.

4. Divers dive for a lot of reasons; you probably dive for a different reason than I do. They are big bodies of water, generally, there is room for everyone. Most of the time, you can find a like minded buddy, heck, you can usually find a like minded entire boat.

5. Personally, I like every aspect of diving. If I stumble across a bag of gold on an unclaimed wreck, sorry, I'm taking it. I take lobster, spearfish, and am a photographer and videographer. And I dive for fun.

 

[Tagerisatroll]

What I find interesting is how some states aproach their drafting of the law, Florida's laws for instance has drafted there statute with the view the ship wrecks in their waters are a natural resource and unless something is unique they will sell it to generate revenue. MIchigan, tends to protect their wrecks as actual as historical sites to be preserved and has a very hands off leave it where it is policy. Its also driven by the nature of the wrecks to be found in the states water ways, in florida's water are the famed spanish galeons and alot of unforunate drug runners , While in Michigan you have the work horses of the great lakes, tugs and barges, and some unfortune bootleggers

Iron ore and coal not worth bring up after 150 years but gold and silver Also the qualtiy of a cold water wreck is alot cooler than a warm salt water wreck they still look like ships not a pile of sticks and balast rocks. Its just kind of interseting to see what intrests drive the drafting of the law.

I wonder how the laws would have been if there was a famed british gold fleet lost on the great lakes...

 

[wreckdiver1715]

Whenever an ancient relic appears on the web for sale captioned by “from some old shipwreck we found“, I get a chill run up my spine. Not that some one other than me found a wreck, but that these artifacts are on the open market with out any sort of historical documentation. This is the exact reason that all treasure hunters should follow standard archaeology guidelines as required in the location that a wreck is discovered i.e., local and state laws. If the relic has been certified, it comes with a history that can be shared in public. As well as commanding higher price tags on the open market. This is important if you are running a small independent operation. Eventually you will have to sell off some of your finds just to pay the boats fuel bill. A certified wreck that has been salvaged legally will fetch about double that of a wreck with no name or history.

There is a general misconception by those academics in the Anthropology departments of many universities the world over, and in particular the state of Florida’s Department of Historical Resources (DHR), is that most all us so called “treasure hunters” go out, find a wreck, pilfer that which may not be ours (by legal definition), and sell it on eBay or some other, more nefarious method of disposing of ill-gotten gains.
This misconception, has led to a global campaign by the academic types to tighten the noose around the neck of the independent salvage divers all over the globe. Or, is it really a misconception?

Every time an item of this nature, that may or may-not be of archaeological significance, surfaces in the public eye, I can see “Them” (archaeologist), all standing in a group pointing at us all, and saying “See... I told you those so called “Treasure hunters”, are all just a lawless bunch of grave robbing, thieving, profiteering pirates for whom, all are only driven by the lust for big profit, with no respect for the law, no respect for world history, and no respect for society in general, they should all be damned, and put behind bars! Sounds harsh doesn’t it? Yet this is how they see us.

There is an element within our community that fits this description, and I would venture a guess that they are relatively few in number. There is little we can do about these folks, just wait and we will eventually read about them in the paper as there boat and all there treasure hunter gear ends up at a public auction.

Then there are the weekend sport divers, who are more interested a good time than anything else. Some of these folks routinely recover relics just for something to do. They collect Indian arrow heads, sharks teeth, portholes and other items from more modern wrecks. Some of these folks clean these items up, and turn them into lamps or other trinkets that can be found in little antique shops in most coastal towns. I would venture a guess that most of these folks are unaware of laws in there communities

 

[Fotoz4FX]

It is indeed interesting to note that although you profess that the property is someone's other than yourself, it would be wise to also note that the galleons of gold and jewels were stolen from the Aztecs, Mayans and native indians of the islands and continents who were pillaged by these so called 'adventurers and discoverers' of these continents that were already inhabited by the true discoverers.

As an American Indian myself, I always find humor in some of the claims of purists who forget to look beyond the hand of possession. The Spanish Galleon of 1715 (11 ships sank and 5 thus far have been found) were loaded with stolen wealth more so than legal cargo. Had the king gotten the piece of *** his queen would not give until he brought home the dowry 11 ships might not have had to sail in the first place.
As for your statement about the historical significance... it's contracted and now, as a result of stupidity on the part of the US Government (again I remind you I am an American)... Countries do have sovereignty over their sunken vessels. A blow to any free-lancing treasure hunter.

As it stands, I have to obtain permission from the contractual owner of the rights to dive the Plate Fleet before doing so and pay a commission as well as give up significant artifacts to the Florida Museums on any discovery or recovery.

Do I share your view?... yes, actually I do but the wealth does not make the vessel any less significant by it's recovery so long as the vessel remains intact to some degree (which noteably is preposterous to even suggest since most of them were dashed against reefs and buffeted by the storms for nearly 6 days before succumbing to the depths).

I am a wreck diver... I pick up sharks teeth from Venice Beach... fossil beds that have 'significant historical value' since they have been there for 2 to 15 million years. Does it make me any less of a person to appreciate possession of such artifacts? No. In fact, my necklace turns heads and stimulates conversations about diving... it is a petrified collage of Hemi and Megaladon teeth.

Your opinion is just that... your opinion. It has validity and loopholes but you are entitled to it and I thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I only hope mine are recieved as graciously.

Now the Disclaimer: The opinion expressed by the author is not shared or endorsed by his employer, associations or anyone of significance... they are his own and are subject to change without notice... so there !!!

 

[sonnyt]

i dont have a fancy degree i barely have an education .dont poke fun .but i am a recreational diver .new ! who exactly do these ships belong to ?sounds to me u are all fighting for nothing .it will be what it is .and u or no one else will change each others minds .you all have very good points .so why bother .you all
are fine gentlemen i am sure .sounds to me like these are just all opnions , and i guess u all know the rest .i am going next week to dive a hotel that was pushed into the water .what line base does that fall into?gotta tell ya what ever i find i am gonna keep .i give the goverment enough .do they have to have evreything we get or got

thanx
sonnyt

 

[Tagerisatroll]

Sounds like a fun dive have fun, be safe, watch the over hang. I have no Idea really on this one... Proably something somewhere... if you get any good photo's would you mind posting them?

Damn I'm Jelous as hell this sounds like a really cool dive sight. I like looking at broken buildings under water.

But I don't know if this would be a "ship wreck" or not; probably not then you would have to look to property law to see who "owns" it. proably a very complicated mess that has been adressed by the local authorities or not, who knows for sure, it may be a pile of sticks in the ocean no-one really cares about.

Anyway, have fun on your dive and for the most part i agree having just paid my property taxes I give the goverment enuff money, i don't need to help them out any more. I could have spent that money on dive gear

 

[sonnyt]

from my info this hotel is over a 100 years old .dove it last week but didnt really find anything .wasnt looking so hard .just a saftey check out dive .but going back with metal detector with my nephew, also certified .ill have to check with the local government to see if i could keep anything . NOT!!!!!! if i decide to take pics i will post them .thanx for ur concern

sonnyt