Treat every dive like a tech dive

[Diver0001]

Perhaps one could say "moving the goal post", there are many levels and types of technical diving, right? Some that are pretty basic, relatively speaking, like open water single stage decompression diving to full on cave diving, right?

There are different disciplines that require different skill sets, that's correct. "full on cave diving" isn't, however the most technically challenging of those, as you seem to suggest.

The OP's blanket question of apply tec to rec for the rec diver for me is hard to make sense of. That's why I made the point about Nitrox once being considered technical and comparing that to experience level. You could have two technical divers with vastly different goals and levels of training. Also, for the sake of this discussion let's assume no one is doing dives outside their training.

I think you failed to see the OP's point. He is suggesting to approach every dive with the same mental attitude as a technical diver would approach a dive. I can only applaud and encourage that.

Take me for example. In talks with my instructor about progressing my diving he asked me why do I want to do technical diving? One of my answers was to shoot a trophy fish. Like a Warsaw grouper which would likely require deep diving and decompression. Well setting gas training aside, I assume my training for that is going to be much different than if I said I want to penetrate caves at Weeki Wachee. So again bring this back to applying tec to rec. How would that type of training benefit an open water dive at 60 ft? I'm not trying to be argumentative. If the next week I want to do a 60 fsw dive is the tech training I received going to make me a safer diver? I wouldn't be diving doubles or bring a stage bottle at 60 fsw. So the gas switching and valve drills I learned wouldn't really apply.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here but the training overlaps. It doesn't matter if you're training to do advanced nitrox dives or advanced wreck dives; the training will challenge you either way.

In fact -- and I don't know if my training is typical or not -- but in my experience the training gets somewhat easier as you progress. The first tech course(s) you take will be the most difficult because you will be learning the basic required skill set. In some very significant ways, advanced nitrox is a lot harder than advanced trimix.

R..

 

[doctormike]

I think you failed to see the OP's point. He is suggesting to approach every dive with the same mental attitude as a technical diver would approach a dive. I can only applaud and encourage that.

This: ^^^

 

[halocline]

I am new to diving but approach this activity from a risk management perspective informed from 15 years of mountaineering, ice climbing and rock climbing and an academic background.

GJS

There are some reasonable analogies between diving and mountaineering, but my opinion is that recreational diving is like hiking and technical diving is like technical mountaineering. In both pursuits there is a theoretical hard line between the 'technical' and 'recreational' sides, but in reality there are climbing routes and dives that sort of straddle the line between the two. Conditions can play a part in this as well. In both worlds the goal is to have fun while remaining as safe as is practical, and by far the biggest contributor to safety is the use of sound judgement to avoid putting oneself in situations that are risky given the tools and training at hand. But technical climbing and diving was developed specifically to allow enthusiasts to deal with riskier environments.

As such I have a bit of a problem with the idea of 'treating every dive like a technical dive'. What's wrong with simply "dive safely and intelligently?" Especially considering the fact that safe and intelligent recreational diving primarily means recognizing the line between rec and tech environments and staying clear of that line.

 

[CuzzA]

There are different disciplines that require different skill sets, that's correct. "full on cave diving" isn't, however the most technically challenging of those, as you seem to suggest.

I was just making a comparison of the two, not that cave diving is the most difficult form of technical diving. My apologies if that's how it was interpreted. I'm sure full commercial saturation diving is probably the most challenging type of diving, maybe not.

I think you failed to see the OP's point. He is suggesting to approach every dive with the same mental attitude as a technical diver would approach a dive. I can only applaud and encourage that.

Earlier in the thread I said every dive should be well thought out and planned. I think we all agree, but I brought up "experience" and so the conversation has shifted. How does a basic open water recreational diver know how to have the mental attitude of a technical diver without actually being a technical diver?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here but the training overlaps. It doesn't matter if you're training to do advanced nitrox dives or advanced wreck dives; the training will challenge you either way.

In fact -- and I don't know if my training is typical or not -- but in my experience the training gets somewhat easier as you progress. The first tech course(s) you take will be the most difficult because you will be learning the basic required skill set. In some very significant ways, advanced nitrox is a lot harder than advanced trimix.

R..

Ok, thanks for answering that. What are some of the skills that would be taught that would overlap across all technical courses, besides gas? What kind of skills would be taught in advanced nitrox or advanced trimix, again besides gas? Could any of those skills be useful to basic open water recreational diving? If they're potentially important life saving skills, should they be part of the basic open water course?

 

[cool_hardware52]

Ok, thanks for answering that. What are some of the skills that would be taught that would overlap across all technical courses, besides gas? What kind of skills would be taught in advanced nitrox or advanced trimix, again besides gas? Could any of those skills be useful to basic open water recreational diving? If they're potentially important life saving skills, should they be part of the basic open water course?

1) Buoyancy control

2) Basic Failures, Loss of Mask, Oral inflation, runaway inflator.

I try to spend part of every dive with my mask off. It conditions me to not see the loss of a mask as an emergency

I also practice oral BC inflation. I recommend this to new divers because in addition to being able to actually inflate their BC it forces the diver to plan ahead.

Tobin

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . . How does a basic open water recreational diver know how to have the mental attitude of a technical diver without actually being a technical diver? . . .

From what the old timers say, the basic open water course used to teach that sort of mental attitude.

That we have gotten to the point where there is such a chasm between rec and tech disturbs me in a way. Basic open water divers are no longer universally encouraged to have the mental attitude we associate with tech divers. I think the approach that has been mentioned is taken by some European agencies, where there is a continuum rather than a chasm, is much more sound.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have not read all of the posts but yes he makes sense. I am starting to get into tech diving and I am learning things that make me wonder "why the hell was I not taught this before?" ...

After taking Essentials of Tec courses I am getting more and more convinced that this so called "rec diving" industry is full of nonsensical short cuts designed to speed up certification rather than to create a better diver. The split fins, snorkel and BCD jacket culture that I was introduced to in my OW class is something I have had to unlearn even within recreational limits to become a better diver. Why waste people's time with such tactics that save instructors time and do nothing more. I wish someone had strapped me in a BP-Wing from day 1 and that would have caused my weight belt to be so much lighter.

The difference is not due to a decision by the recreational/sport (whatever) diving community. The different styles and the different equipment are due to the fact that the two evolved separately. The equipment and techniques used by each set of divers were developed over decades in accordance to their needs. If you go to most dive shops I know and talk to the people helping you about tech diving issues, there is a good chance that person will not have a real clue about it. I had never seen a technical diver until I started the training myself, and I was an experienced OW instructor then. Once when I was practicing in the pool, the shop's buyer came in and asked me to explain what I was wearing and why I was wearing it.

Ok, thanks for answering that. What are some of the skills that would be taught that would overlap across all technical courses, besides gas? What kind of skills would be taught in advanced nitrox or advanced trimix, again besides gas? Could any of those skills be useful to basic open water recreational diving? If they're potentially important life saving skills, should they be part of the basic open water course?

There is very little actual skill associated gas choices, and as far as the academics are concerned, there is not much going on in an advanced nitrox course that is not contained in a basic nitrox course. PADI does not even teach an advanced nitrox course because they just include that information along with the other material in their tech program.

When I teach technical diving, the very hardest skills for students to learn are the following, listed starting with the hardest skills first, according to how it seems to me.

1. Valve shutdown: Divers in doubles need to be able to shut down any malfunctioning valve on the manifold behind them, and they need to be able to do it quickly. Many beginners can't even touch those valves, let alone shut them down and then open them all again in the 45 seconds required by the courses I teach. They need to be able to do this while hovering in horizontal trim and holding a decompression stop. Man, that is hard!

2. Holding a decompression stop: You need to be able to hover in horizontal trim at a specific depth for an extended period of time, and you need to be able to do those in a series of stops at different depths. Let's say you are using a computer to manage your stops, and you switch to oxygen for the 20 foot stop. Let's say you are there for 10 minutes. During those 10 minutes, your computer will flash a warning for high oxygen partial pressure if you drop to 21 feet, and it will flash you a warning for missing the stop if you rise to 19 feet. You have to be able to deal with ANY emergency that might arise while you are holding your position.

3. Advanced kicking skills: Divers need to be proficient in the frog kick, the modified frog kick, the modified flutter kick, the back kick, and the helicopter turn. I can't begin to estimate how many hours it took me to master the back kick.

4. Handling decompression bottles effectively: The number of extra tanks you carry depends upon the nature of the dive you are doing. You need to be able to switch to the correct gas at the correct depth without changing that depth, which is a lot harder than it sounds. In the first dive of the trimix PADI trimix course, students need to be able to handle 4 decompression tanks effectively.

So how does this apply to recreational diving? To me, the skill you pick up in doing the above translates into improved buoyancy and trim that will revolutionize your diving. I was once on a recreational/sport trip to the island Ni'ihau in Hawai'i. The DM pointed to a very unusual lobster hiding off in a corner of a large swim through. I casually frog kicked over into that tightly confined area, stopped and hovered next to it while I gave it a good look, backed up to get into an area where the ceiling was not so low, did a helicopter turn, and swam away to let others get a look. No one else could get close, and back on the boat the talk was all "How did you do that?" Well, for a tech diver, what I did was pretty easy. When I went to Truk Lagoon and visited those old wrecks, my buddy and I did our best to avoid going into the rooms in the wrecks with most of the other people on the trip, because their flutter kicking stirred up so much rust and silt that it was tough to see anything. The primary reason technical divers learn those kicks is so they can go into such environments without ruining them.

 

[CuzzA]

1) Buoyancy control

2) Basic Failures, Loss of Mask, Oral inflation, runaway inflator.

I try to spend part of every dive with my mask off. It conditions me to not see the loss of a mask as an emergency

I also practice oral BC inflation. I recommend this to new divers because in addition to being able to actually inflate their BC it forces the diver to plan ahead.

Tobin

Thank you!!! Now were starting to get into the meat of where I was going with this discussion.

Let's talk about some of the technical skills taught that could be applied to recreational diving and why the more experienced diver maybe already knows how to handle it.

Lost mask. I wonder how many people died because they lost their mask. This seems like a skill that should be taught in basic open water. I'm not talking about taking it off and putting it back on, but at 60 feet, especially saltwater, you need to prove you can safely end the dive without a mask. That's a real possibility of happening. I have never done this.

Buoyancy control. I'll twist this one with weighting. It seems to me this is a super important skill that is never correctly taught in most open water classes. My instructor did not anchor us to the platform, but we never really went in depth about weighting, especially for each student. I realize there's only so much time, but improper weighting seems so dangerous. I found this was completely my responsibility to figure out on my own and it's basically trial and error. I think a good hour could be spent with a student determining a descent idea of how much weight they will need for steel and aluminum tanks and different wetsuit thicknesses.

BC/Inflator failures. Again seems like a runaway inflator drill should be performed. Can a student dump while the instructor is inflating and disconnect the inflator hose. Also, you should also be able to swim your rig up from depth without any assistance from your BC, right? I don't recall having to do this. I guess this goes back to the weighting problem.

I'll add something I learned a month or so after I was certified and asking questions. The question was, "What should I do if I have a catastrophic free flow failure of a reg?" My instructor immediately replied, "Crimp the hose, just like a garden hose." I'll be damned if I didn't try it and sure enough it worked. Is this something that would be taught in a technical class?

From what the old timers say, the basic open water course used to teach that sort of mental attitude.

That we have gotten to the point where there is such a chasm between rec and tech disturbs me in a way. Basic open water divers are no longer universally encouraged to have the mental attitude we associate with tech divers. I think the approach that has been mentioned is taken by some European agencies, where there is a continuum rather than a chasm, is much more sound.

Sounds like they used to teach a lot more than they do today. That's troubling to me. One of the reasons I chose my LDS was because they are tech divers. It was pretty impressive seeing a half dozen rebreathers sitting around. I thought to myself, "I'm going to learn a lot from these guys." And I am.

The difference is not due to a decision by the recreational/sport (whatever) diving community. The different styles and the different equipment are due to the fact that the two evolved separately. The equipment and techniques used by each set of divers were developed over decades in accordance to their needs. If you go to most dive shops I know and talk to the people helping you about tech diving issues, there is a good chance that person will not have a real clue about it. I had never seen a technical diver until I started the training myself, and I was an experienced OW instructor then. Once when I was practicing in the pool, the shop's buyer came in and asked me to explain what I was wearing and why I was wearing it.



There is very little actual skill associated gas choices, and as far as the academics are concerned, there is not much going on in an advanced nitrox course that is not contained in a basic nitrox course. PADI does not even teach an advanced nitrox course because they just include that information along with the other material in their tech program.

When I teach technical diving, the very hardest skills for students to learn are the following, listed starting with the hardest skills first, according to how it seems to me.

1. Valve shutdown: Divers in doubles need to be able to shut down any malfunctioning valve on the manifold behind them, and they need to be able to do it quickly. Many beginners can't even touch those valves, let alone shut them down and then open them all again in the 45 seconds required by the courses I teach. They need to be able to do this while hovering in horizontal trim and holding a decompression stop. Man, that is hard!

2. Holding a decompression stop: You need to be able to hover in horizontal trim at a specific depth for an extended period of time, and you need to be able to do those in a series of stops at different depths. Let's say you are using a computer to manage your stops, and you switch to oxygen for the 20 foot stop. Let's say you are there for 10 minutes. During those 10 minutes, your computer will flash a warning for high oxygen partial pressure if you drop to 21 feet, and it will flash you a warning for missing the stop if you rise to 19 feet. You have to be able to deal with ANY emergency that might arise while you are holding your position.

3. Advanced kicking skills: Divers need to be proficient in the frog kick, the modified frog kick, the modified flutter kick, the back kick, and the helicopter turn. I can't begin to estimate how many hours it took me to master the back kick.

4. Handling decompression bottles effectively: The number of extra tanks you carry depends upon the nature of the dive you are doing. You need to be able to switch to the correct gas at the correct depth without changing that depth, which is a lot harder than it sounds. In the first dive of the trimix PADI trimix course, students need to be able to handle 4 decompression tanks effectively.

So how does this apply to recreational diving? To me, the skill you pick up in doing the above translates into improved buoyancy and trim that will revolutionize your diving. I was once on a recreational/sport trip to the island Ni'ihau in Hawai'i. The DM pointed to a very unusual lobster hiding off in a corner of a large swim through. I casually frog kicked over into that tightly confined area, stopped and hovered next to it while I gave it a good look, backed up to get into an area where the ceiling was not so low, did a helicopter turn, and swam away to let others get a look. No one else could get close, and back on the boat the talk was all "How did you do that?" Well, for a tech diver, what I did was pretty easy. When I went to Truk Lagoon and visited those old wrecks, my buddy and I did our best to avoid going into the rooms in the wrecks with most of the other people on the trip, because their flutter kicking stirred up so much rust and silt that it was tough to see anything. The primary reason technical divers learn those kicks is so they can go into such environments without ruining them.

Thanks for answering John! It definitely sounds like technical classes are going to put some pressure on me. So as a new diver, do you think those things you mentioned that can be applied to basic recreational diving can be self developed over time? That's a little bit of what I was talking about when I brought up experience. I have to believe the more you dive the better your buoyancy will become, right? I definitely agree with the buoyancy though. When I did my AOW class I chose Peak Performance Buoyancy as one of the dives and that was definitely the most informative dive. We were at Blue Grotto and our instructor had us maintain a distance of 2 feet between the ceiling and then again 2 feet from the platform while we frog kicked for about 10 yards, helicopter turned and then came back. We did this quite a few times. Sounds like I can expect a lot more of that along with added task loading.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Let's talk about some of the technical skills taught that could be applied to recreational diving and why the more experienced diver maybe already knows how to handle it.

Lost mask. I wonder how many people died because they lost their mask. This seems like a skill that should be taught in basic open water. I'm not talking about taking it off and putting it back on, but at 60 feet, especially saltwater, you need to prove you can safely end the dive without a mask. That's a real possibility of happening. I have never done this.

A tech diver carries a spare mask. If you have a problem with the one you're wearing, or lose it, you take the spare out of your pocket and put it on. You need to be able to do this while holding your buoyancy at a consistent depth, as describe by John earlier.

Buoyancy control. I'll twist this one with weighting. It seems to me this is a super important skill that is never correctly taught in most open water classes. My instructor did not anchor us to the platform, but we never really went in depth about weighting, especially for each student. I realize there's only so much time, but improper weighting seems so dangerous. I found this was completely my responsibility to figure out on my own and it's basically trial and error. I think a good hour could be spent with a student determining a descent idea of how much weight they will need for steel and aluminum tanks and different wetsuit thicknesses.

Proper weighting and a weight check should have been a part of your OW curriculum. Keep in mind, however, that the priority in most OW classes is getting you down, and it's much less time-consuming to overweight a student than it is to train them for how to dive at their optimal weight. The biggest reason why divers are overweighted is because they never learned how to descend properly. Often they inadvertently move their feet while attempting to descend, which sends them up while they're trying to go down. Or they are never taught how to use their lungs (i.e. "internal BCD") to help them descend ... particularly during that critical top few feet. And so they inhale too soon and go back to the surface before depth and compression become their friend. By the time you get to the tech level, proper weighting and doing weight checks with changes in equipment is second nature.

BC/Inflator failures. Again seems like a runaway inflator drill should be performed. Can a student dump while the instructor is inflating and disconnect the inflator hose. Also, you should also be able to swim your rig up from depth without any assistance from your BC, right? I don't recall having to do this. I guess this goes back to the weighting problem.

Disconnecting a stuck inflator is a part of technical training. And there's a reason why doubles rigs are configured as they are, in order to accommodate such a failure. Yes, you should be able to swim your rig up from depth without assistance from your BCD ... it's called a "balanced rig". However, you should also be well-versed in oral inflation ... it should be no big whoop to do it if that's what the situation calls for.

I'll add something I learned a month or so after I was certified and asking questions. The question was, "What should I do if I have a catastrophic free flow failure of a reg?" My instructor immediately replied, "Crimp the hose, just like a garden hose." I'll be damned if I didn't try it and sure enough it worked. Is this something that would be taught in a technical class?

In a free flow, the technical diver simply shuts down the post that the second stage is connected to ... to preserve the gas. Then you have options. You can begin an ascent, using the back-up second or you can "feather" ... turning your valve on to breathe, and then turning it off again till you need the next breath. Most times, the former, simpler option is preferable. Crimping a hose isn't typically a consideration, as that can introduce more task-loading (and a potential failure) that would only complicate the exit. Also remember, a tech diver will only need to breathe off their back gas up to the point where they can switch to their first deco gas. After that, the failure becomes inconsequential, since (unless something further goes wrong) they won't be breathing off their back-gas again anyway.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Hawkwood]

My comments in blue.

Thank you!!! Now were starting to get into the meat of where I was going with this discussion.

Let's talk about some of the technical skills taught that could be applied to recreational diving and why the more experienced diver maybe already knows how to handle it.

Just when did you take your Open Water course? These are the Standards to which I have to teach in Confined Water:

Lost mask. I wonder how many people died because they lost their mask. This seems like a skill that should be taught in basic open water. I'm not talking about taking it off and putting it back on, but at 60 feet, especially saltwater, you need to prove you can safely end the dive without a mask. That's a real possibility of happening. I have never done this.

Breathe without a mask for at least one minute.
Swim without a mask for at least 15 metres/50 feet, then replace and clear the mask.

Buoyancy control. I'll twist this one with weighting. It seems to me this is a super important skill that is never correctly taught in most open water classes. My instructor did not anchor us to the platform, but we never really went in depth about weighting, especially for each student. I realize there's only so much time, but improper weighting seems so dangerous. I found this was completely my responsibility to figure out on my own and it's basically trial and error. I think a good hour could be spent with a student determining a descent idea of how much weight they will need for steel and aluminum tanks and different wetsuit thicknesses.

Adjust for proper weighting — float at eye level at thesurface with no or minimal air in the BCD and whileholding a normal breath.

It's done on confined water dive 2 and from then on weighting is to be adjusted at the start of the remaining confined water dives and each open water dive. Adjusting your weight under different conditions is also discussed in the knowledge development portion.

BC/Inflator failures. Again seems like a runaway inflator drill should be performed. Can a student dump while the instructor is inflating and disconnect the inflator hose. Also, you should also be able to swim your rig up from depth without any assistance from your BC, right? I don't recall having to do this. I guess this goes back to the weighting problem.

Disconnect Low Pressure Inflator Hose - Have student divers disconnect the low pressure hose from the inflator in shallow water.
Orally inflate the BCD to hover for at least one minute, without kicking or sculling.

Students do learn how to deal with "runaway inflators", and how to orally inflate their BCDs underwater.

I'll add something I learned a month or so after I was certified and asking questions. The question was, "What should I do if I have a catastrophic free flow failure of a reg?" My instructor immediately replied, "Crimp the hose, just like a garden hose." I'll be damned if I didn't try it and sure enough it worked. Is this something that would be taught in a technical class?

Breathe effectively from a simulated free flowing regulator for at least 30 seconds.

Purge button held fully open - it's a freeflow!


Sounds like they used to teach a lot more than they do today. That's troubling to me. One of the reasons I chose my LDS was because they are tech divers. It was pretty impressive seeing a half dozen rebreathers sitting around. I thought to myself, "I'm going to learn a lot from these guys." And I am.

These are skills taught in the Open Water course. I learned them in 2006 in my Open Water course and I teach them now...as part of the requirements.


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