Trim is the Platform, Buoyancy the Heart and Propulsion the Art.

[ofg-1]

I am rarely serious, and easily confused. I am not certain where the line is between basic discussions and advanced. Given that you can be certified as an advanced diver with basically 15 dives, then the platform,heart, and art thing just confuses me. I am not saying that they are not important however, it misses some very basic things.

First, I would rather have a partner with horrible trim than to have one that cannot remain calm. I would rather have someone struggle with buoyancy than to get their teeth bashed out with a dive platform, which is not pretty. It does not bother me if their frog kick is not pretty as long as they do not loose everything that is happening around them focusing on a single, perhaps minor, problem.

You guys with hundreds or thousands of dives, divemasters, instructors, trainers, who continually harp on things that most people will usually pick up with more experience, to me, are missing the point of instruction. It is to make sure your students are not a danger to themselves or others, perhaps actually help another diver in trouble without making things worse, and not to loose their cookies if they have a gear failure or come up 100 yards behind a boat.

In theory, this is supposed to be a hobby, hobbies are supposed to be fun, not to be filled with anxiety that your frog kick may be dogged on the internet or that you might get a knee down. Skills can, and should, be practiced and perfected (whatever that means). If you start evaluating people with 20 dives the same way you evaluate people with hundreds, its just stupid.

 

[johndiver999]

I dive with several different steel tanks (LP and HP) ranging in weight, buoyancy, capacity etc. I dive with several different wetsuits. I commonly dive with three different BC's, including a Scuba Pro jacket, BP/W etc. I often just grab a weightbelt from the "box" and the weight may vary by a few lbs.

With all these variables and the changing tank characteristics which occur DURING a dive (associated with the draining of a steel tank) that has a capacity of over 125 cu-ft, I find that my trim and buoyancy is going to vary. In warm water and a thin suit, I am over-weighted with a large steel tank and zero weightbelt or additional lead. I also, commonly use different types of fins, depending on various conditions and objectives.

With all these variables, I have never been able to perfectly dial in everything and attain perfect trim, the absolute minimal amount of lead or anything like that.

I can understand how some people feel compelled to dial in their perfect setup (which often seems to include a minimal amount of ballast and a minimally sized wing/BC - lift capacity) and then afterward they want to make zero or minimal changes in their gear selection.

Perhaps the pursuit of this absolute perfect set up is beneficial or rewarding, but for all the reasons mentioned above, it is not something I personally chase after. Part of this may be my personality - I am NOT a perfectionist. "Close enough is good enough".

Not sure if that is on topic or not, to be honest, I'm not really sure exactly what constraints on the the topic of discussion are desired?

 

[MichaelMc]

Thanks RainPilot. That is a good link for what we are assuming here, a very good link.

To clarify, things that are not this thread (and are off topic):
- That T/B/P are not or are important.
- That other things are important: fun, awareness, and not panicking.
- Whether none or much of this is possible at the OW or AOW class.
- We need not worry about a 10 or 15 dives diver being confused or overwhelmed by this. This is an advanced discussion. Labeling all AOW class graduates as 'advanced' divers has been well discussed as marketing or optimistic.
- The challenges of an instructor or diver with a gear locker of disparate gear, that they grab and go with, are not faced by many in the 'advanced but not tech' level. If you have to dive that way, the finer points of Trim/Buoyancy/Propulsion with simpler gear choices are likely not foremost in your mind. That is fine, but not this discussion.
- Tech. Stage add/remove. Etc.

Trying for a martial arts analogy:
- White belt, in some style: the basics of how to stand/move and why. Not this discussion
- Brown (or upper green): finer points of that. This discussion.
- Black belt: 'all that laid a good foundation, but it gets chaotic when fighting on stairs. When fighting on stairs let go of too much attachment to it. Keep it as a base, but the stairs are the ground'. Not this discussion.

I see the discussion range as:
- You get RainPilot's link, agree they are important, and may even think you do well at them.
- You can discuss the situation of having a tank type and gear setup you regularly use (Jane/Joe diver). Either because that is you or because you can discuss that simpler situation instead of the wider range you actually dive.

If your point falls out of that range, that is some other thread. Some other threads on the basics or why of this were: No knee skills for DM, Buoyancy.

Given that range:
- How do you see each of the three.
- Do you think the title's flowing description is apt, or do you think say Ouvea is on point that mastery of all three is the art.
- What subtler points of them do you find important or useful.

RainPilot,
Given T/B/P's importance as assumed, how do you find managing buoyancy and the breathing rhythm. Or shifting from forward and reverse kicks.

(Edited for hopefully better clarity)

 

[The Chairman]

First, I would rather have a partner with horrible trim than to have one that cannot remain calm.

They are the same person. A person without great horizontal trim is out of control and cannot remain calm.

I love this title. I think it's apt. Without great trim, there is little hope for consistent buoyancy. Why? Thrust. If you're at a thirty degree angle, then 2/3s of your thrust is horizontal and one third is vertical. ONE THIRD IS VERTICAL. You'll have to vent your BC of some air in order to stay neutral. This works fine until you stop to look at a fish and start to sink. Why? Because you lost that vertical thrust that was keeping you up when you stopped kicking. Now you have to find that inflator and replace the lost thrust with some extra buoyancy. Whew. But when you kick, you get that extra bit of lift back and you need to vent before you hit the surface. HOW EXHAUSTING!!! (pardon the pun)

OW students can easily perfect their trim before they finish their class. It's not hard, but the instructor must see it as an important skill for this to happen. I hear lots of excuses about why they can't do this, and I really don't buy any of them. I introduce trim first. FIRST. I teach it with the beginning kick, which is a frog kick. Once trim is achieved on the surface, I get them to descend. Once they are comfortable, the real teaching begins and it doesn't take long because they aren't frightened because they are in trim and in control.

Trim is the base.
Trim is the trick.
Trim is the magic.
Trim is the Spice.
Trim must be horizontal.
You can't have much fun without good trim!
Trim is not hard to figure out. ​

My students never, ever kneel in a class.
My students never, ever do fin pivots in a class. Actually, you can't do them if you're in good horizontal trim.
They don't touch the bottom, nor do they pop to the surface.
It doesn't take any longer to teach this way, just a different approach.

I've had three OW classes mistaken for cavern classes. That's the best accolade I've ever gotten.
I've had my Trim, Buoyancy and Propulsion workshop nicknamed "Bragging amounts of trim" class. That's the second best accolade I've gotten.

 

[MichaelMc]

Pete, thanks for chiming in. Ahh, much of your response is off topic, for fear that it will create a debate on the assumption of the thread. Such as the off topic discussion you reply to by ofg-1, and that of johndiver999. Debating whether T/B/P is important is not the point of this thread. That has been done and redone many times.
The point is, in a world where we see them as important/useful, what advanced points do we see in them?

Pete, Given we agree on rainpilots link, and are not teaching new students, but rather discussing T/B/P with brown belt level students or divers, who got rainpilot's basic points back in basics, what keys do you find in those three? Among them, are they art, heart, foundation? Something else?

(Edited for hopefully better clarity)

 

[RainPilot]

I think my feelings about

1. Buoyancy: essential. Not just neutral but control. The ability to go where you want to in the water column then stay there.
   
2. Propulsion: obviously essential but importance is mainly on control. The ability to precisely manoeuvre where you want to without thinking about it. Huge increase in confidence and fun factor once you start getting this dialled in.
   
3. Trim. Very important to have the ability to assume whichever trim position is appropriate for what you are doing. That will usually be horizontal but not always

Some days you need to chill out and check your buddies and the boat / surface situation without straining your neck.
(I am not hanging on the SMB although it does look like I am)

For those who care, this was the last couple of minutes of deco on a 60m training bailout following a boom drill. The inflator hanging off the right hand tank was disconnected from the MAV. I should have tidied it up but I had other fish to fry getting the team up.

 

[The Chairman]

How to know you're not in trim...

Video evidence (best)
Always fiddling with your inflate/deflate buttons
You're completely neutral while stopped, but you're light when you kick.
You have a horrible SAC
You use your hands (sculling)
You leave behind a legacy of silt.​

How to know your buoyancy stinks...

You feel out of control or even panicky
You're touching the bottom and didn't intend to
You've bobbed to the surface and didn't intend to
You use your hands (sculling)
You leave behind a legacy of silt.
People are pointing
People are laughing
Someone recommends a PPB class.​

How to know you propulsion is poor?

Video evidence (best)
You leave a legacy of silt
Your SAC is high​

 

[Colliam7]

I am rarely serious, and easily confused. I am not certain where the line is between basic discussions and advanced. Given that you can be certified as an advanced diver with basically 15 dives, then the platform,heart, and art thing just confuses me. I am not saying that they are not important however, it misses some very basic things. . . .

You make some very reasonable points. However, it is probably best to keep the thread on topic. As the OP stated, in the post that started the thread, 'If you don't think they are important or want to defend their importance, that is not this thread.

I agree with much of what you say, and it may be better to say it in a different thread. The focus of this particular thread is intended to be:

- How do you blend or build through those three?
- What are the subtle points of them?

And, yes, one possible answer to one of those questions is indirectly addressed in you post - it takes time and practice.

 

[Bubblesong]

To reach the most vacation divers with this message, a very simple quick dive-check helps:
To check all three, First, standard buoyancy check at surface, before descending to about two feet off bottom. Next I go horizontal as possible, clasp my hands to chest and stick my legs out straight. Hold still, No movement for two minutes except breathing and then pay attention to what happens next. It gives me the information on what to tweak. Also if there’s even a small current I’ll note it. Last, I give a few tiny straight, fin flicks, should go straight, but otherwise more tweaking. Other than having buddy hold a spirit level to my side, (to make up for optical illusion of sloping sea floor), this is fastest way to get ready for whole trip of diving. No use going on any fun dives until this is done, beginning of every trip. Whole thing should not take more than ten minutes each beginning of trip once you’ve had practice.
Now if you want to get into more fine details about positioning weights and different kicks, you have a framework for testing improvements vs detractions.

 

[Celt]

But horizontal trim is the worst possible position if your working on the bottom, the only place horizontal trim is useful is mid water then your doing nothing. It’s useless for photographers and it’s useless at deco stops