Tulum - what training should I get?

[LakeCountyDiver]

My comments are not a flame,everything you said sounds great and congratulations on your cert.

No flame here either man. I really appreciate your stand on our sport and thank you for your efforts. I do not ever advocate breaking training its just here in north Florida training is a little different then say our south Florida counterparts.

Its just hard for me to stand on the "NO OVERHEADS" ever ever ever!!! When I was trained in one and dove them regularly. I always knew I was different as I took diving much more serious then others at the shop. I would spend days in the lakes (heavy silt bottoms) nailing buoyancy and fin kicks always cautious of the way I left the environment behind me. I knew I wanted to cave dive since the first dive in Blue Grotto. I love this sport.

Im just no good at doing something and then telling others they can't.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

No flame here either man. I really appreciate your stand on our sport and thank you for your efforts. I do not ever advocate breaking training its just here in north Florida training is a little different then say our south Florida counterparts.

Its just hard for me to stand on the "NO OVERHEADS" ever ever ever!!! When I was trained in one and dove them regularly. I always knew I was different as I took diving much more serious then others at the shop. I would spend days in the lakes (heavy silt bottoms) nailing buoyancy and fin kicks always cautious of the way I left the environment behind me. I knew I wanted to cave dive since the first dive in Blue Grotto. I love this sport.

Im just no good at doing something and then telling others they can't.

Absolutely understandable however there is a difference between promoting your choices as safe for all as opposed to "this is what I've done and why".

 

[boulderjohn]

If you don't like where the agencies have drawn the line feel free to start your own. My only point is that SB and this section is open to all people. A diver with 8 dives asked about cenotes. No responsible person is going to recommend doing anything other than taking appropriate training. What the OP does is ultimately his responsibility. Same with swim throughs, trust me dives or over filling bottles. The line has to drawn somewhere and overhead appears to be where the vast majority of agencies agree.

If this were true, wouldn't you be able to cite a single agency that has such a rule? Doesn't the fact that you are unable to identify a single specific agency with a single specific rule like this suggest that you might be wrong?

Seriously, you have been challenged to do this many times, and you refuse to respond. If you will not do this, please at least explain why you refuse.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

If this were true, wouldn't you be able to cite a single agency that has such a rule? Doesn't the fact that you are unable to identify a single specific agency with a single specific rule like this suggest that you might be wrong?

Seriously, you have been challenged to do this many times, and you refuse to respond. If you will not do this, please at least explain why you refuse.

Your still going on about nonsense. There is no agency that doesn't recommend training before diving in an overhead.

 

[LakeCountyDiver]

Absolutely understandable however there is a difference between promoting your choices as safe for all as opposed to "this is what I've done and why".

None of my choices are safe for all... In the kids program I DiveMastered in for a while I dove with 12yr olds the were great divers right out of the box. Just excellent! My brother is 32 and he too was GREAT from OW. Now My dad got certified in 1986 and has dove a lot and he is a horrible diver with no regard to safety or form in the water. Ive seen good and bad divers. It really just depends on ones personality and willingness to learn.

8 dives is not a whole lot but depending on the diver it may be enough for a guided tour.

 

[boulderjohn]

Your still going on about nonsense. There is no agency that doesn't recommend training before diving in an overhead.

I don't know of any agency that says you must have training before you go into ANY overhead. I will give details for PADI, since that is one of the agencies for which I instruct and it is the one I know best. Here is what I know:

1. In a recent thread in which other PADI instructors with full access to all standards argued that the agency forbids all overheads, these instructors tried hard, but they were not able to find any such standard.
2. The closest they could find is one of the statements in the safe diving practices document that specifically states training is required for cave diving. No argument here, but that is not ALL overheads.
3. PADI has a standard for instructors saying that they cannot take students into overheads, with the exception of courses that teach overhead diving and local orientation dives. Local orientation dives introduce divers new to the area to local dive sites they may later wish to visit on their own. This standard clearly assumes those divers will want to access those overheads on their own after being led there by an instructor. I witnessed one such local orientation dive in March in which the instructor took customers into a small wreck.
4. PADI has an officially approved distinctive specialty that teaches students to differentiate between overhead environments that can be dived without further training and those that demand further training. This clearly indicates that PADI has no such policy against this, since it would not approve a course that violates its own policy.
5. PADI 5 Star facilities are required to adhere to PADI policies. Hundreds of PADI 5 Star facilities around the world feature entry into overheads as part of what they offer for divers.

So, all of that indicates that PADI does not have a standard that tells divers that they cannot enter simple overheads. Please note that to refute this, all you have to do is identify one statement from PADI that says that it does not allow its divers to enter ANY overhead without training for it.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

So, all of that indicates that PADI does not have a standard that tells divers that they cannot enter simple overheads. Please note that to refute this, all you have to do is identify one statement from PADI that says that it does not allow its divers to enter ANY overhead without training for it.

Ok, how does PADI define Open Water and what are the limitations of that particular course?

 

[boulderjohn]

Ok, how does PADI define Open Water and what are the limitations of that particular course?

The limitations of students in a course are different from the limitations of divers going out on their own after certification.

this is getting very repetitive. All you have to do is quote a single standard and the discussion will end.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

The limitations of students in a course are different from the limitations of divers going out on their own after certification.

this is getting very repetitive. All you have to do is quote a single standard and the discussion will end.

The limitations of a an OW certification are clearly published. Open Water entails an unobstructed ascent to the surface.

EVERY training agency advises that all divers not exceed their level of training.

Repetitive is right. You are again justifying diving beyond the limits a diver was trained for based on your assumption that if the standards do not specifically call out over heard then it must be ok.

I'm not sure you make a suitable mentor.

 

[boulderjohn]

The limitations of a an OW certification are clearly published. Open Water entails an unobstructed ascent to the surface.

EVERY training agency advises that all divers not exceed their level of training.

So we have moved from all agencies prohibit any diving in any overhead to agencies advise against diving beyond their training. I don't want to get into how absolute you think that is. Does a diver who was trained at a maximum depth of 37 feet need to take a course to dive to 38 feet? If a diver does training in fresh water, is a new course required to dive in salt water? If they train at 78° F, do they need a new course to dive at 77° F? Or is some judgment allowed?

Repetitive is right. You are again justifying diving beyond the limits a diver was trained for based on your assumption that if the standards do not specifically call out over heard then it must be ok.

The standards do not specifically say that it is acceptable to dive in Hawai'i. I will assume that it is OK to do so. If there was a reason for them to specify that diving in Hawai'i is not allowed, they would mention it. Since they don't mention it, I am going to take the risk and dive there the next chance I get.

With simple overheads, not only do they not call them out, they mention them as being acceptable several times, as I have pointed out.