Two missing on submerged Great Wall - China

[Grus]

Can someone post/link to whatever GUE released?
Additionally, was the recovered SMB attached to a reel or spool? What was their gas situation?

I just found this article in Chinese, I do not know GUEhq released anything yet myself.
It says the two divers have received diving training in many organizations, not just in the GUE, but the most recent and most important training (cave diving and technical diving) in their career is indeed from the GUE institutions since 2011, including Thailand, the Philippines, China, Italy and Mexico. Their rebreather training is conducted in other institutions, but the GUE is convinced that they are also qualified in other institutions as well.
BUT I do not know the exact questions the reporter asked or the exact answers GUEhq gave. I have my doubts, like were there GUE trainings conducted in Thailand?

Spool and reel use the same main word with different adjectives in Chinese, the search diver just said the main word, the "spool" word above is my speculation. If it is a reel, the story will be much simpler.

 

[PfcAJ]

I just found this article in Chinese, I do not know GUEhq released anything yet myself.
It says the two divers have received diving training in many organizations, not just in the GUE, but the most recent and most important training (cave diving and technical diving) in their career is indeed from the GUE institutions since 2011, including Thailand, the Philippines, China, Italy and Mexico. Their rebreather training is conducted in other institutions, but the GUE is convinced that they are also qualified in other institutions as well.
BUT I do not know the exact questions the reporter asked or the exact answers GUEhq gave. I have my doubts, like were there GUE trainings conducted in Thailand?

Spool and reel use the same main word with different adjectives in Chinese, the search diver just said the main word, the "spool" word above is my speculation. If it is a reel, the story will be much simpler.

Thanks.

I'm trying to see if there's evidence for the SMB being deployed during deco or at depth.

 

[Grus]

At least GUE china can confirm that the female diver was certified or NOT to use a JJ rebreather. GUE china and may be sinoscuba has a lot to answer in this accident especially on dive plan.
How could the surface support personnel not notice that the smb had gone missing? How difficult it is to follow a floating object on flat surface?
What is the state of the 'recovered" smb? Was the line cut or everything is there(spool/reel etc etc)?

I can not answer the questions without knowing the exact information or reasonable reasoning.
According to project & search divers I mentioned above, this matter is still undergoing investigation, more detailed infomation is not available to public without police and family of the deceased's consent.
But I do know Steven Schwankert's SinoScuba is innocent in this accident.

 

[KevinNM]

I think the GUE HQ Bld didn’t have power until early last week, so not sure how involved they could be.

 

[dmaziuk]

Also the Chinese government had a press release clearly stating that the activities were not authorized and therefore not in compliance with the heritage protection laws that clearly prohibit unauthorized work on historic monuments like the great wall.

For those not familiar, it' kind of like seatbelt laws in "non-enforcing" states: you don't have to wear one unless they stop you for some reason. Then you'll get the seatbelt fine on top of everything else. It was the same back in my "old country": the bad old USSR, and it's still alive and well in its successors, in many different forms.

 

[FuAn]

I just found this article in Chinese, I do not know GUEhq released anything yet myself.
It says the two divers have received diving training in many organizations, not just in the GUE, but the most recent and most important training (cave diving and technical diving) in their career is indeed from the GUE institutions since 2011, including Thailand, the Philippines, China, Italy and Mexico. Their rebreather training is conducted in other institutions, but the GUE is convinced that they are also qualified in other institutions as well.
BUT I do not know the exact questions the reporter asked or the exact answers GUEhq gave. I have my doubts, like were there GUE trainings conducted in Thailand?

I do not have the exact statement either but it reflects the facts and sounds what they possibly had given:

• Sun Hao and Haiyan were GUE trained
• They were no GUE instructors or of any sort of GUE officials
• Haiyan was IANTD rEvo trained
• Sun Hao was not GUE JJ certified (cant recall who he did his course with)
• Project Baseline is a database that collects data from volunteers it is no project that conducts underwater activities
• GUE China is no official organization, there is also no reference by GUE, different than other agencies there are no country/regional licensees. Frankly its a group of dive buddys that are GUE certified and call themselves GUE China (a weixing account does not qualify as legal existance)
• Thailand is a frequent destination for various instructors in the region including GUE instructors Gideon Liew (Singapore) and Graham Blackmore (Hong Kong), most likely also Hui Jin, because its easy accessible and cheap. A typical open water course in Shanghai includes a weekend trip to Thailand or Philippines because there is close to zero local diving in China.

Again I know/knew most of the people involved some of them very well. I have not brought up the JJ issue as I have not heard confirmed Haiyan was in fact on a JJ, there would have been at least one more rEvo in Beijing she could have possibly borrowed, but if so, if not in the very recent weeks, she was not certified. She did buy her rEvo via me though in early 2015 and was certified through IANTD. That part is a little vague for me right now although I fear it might be that way.

I can not answer the questions without knowing the exact information or reasonable reasoning.
According to project & search divers I mentioned above, this matter is still undergoing investigation, more detailed infomation is not available to public without police and family of the deceased's consent.
But I do know Steven Schwankert's SinoScuba is innocent in this accident.

To my knowledge there was no involvement of SinoScuba in this specific event. They do run trips to the Great wall though.

For those not familiar, it' kind of like seatbelt laws in "non-enforcing" states: you don't have to wear one unless they stop you for some reason. Then you'll get the seatbelt fine on top of everything else. It was the same back in my "old country": the bad old USSR, and it's still alive and well in its successors, in many different forms.

This is patent nonsense, there is no such thing as a seatbelt law. If there is a law in place it is and will be applicable. Your wrongful doing had been committed the moment you were not wearing a seatbelt this is not contingent any other misdemeanor. Now enforcement is something else but just because this has not been enforced in the past does not mean you cant or likely won't get charged for it. IE you get caught speeding, you won't be able to claim speeding has never been enforced on this road, you also won't be getting away with causing an accident speeding and then claim you should not get punished additionally for speeding because if you would not have caused an accident you would have never been caught because speeding usually never gets enforced on this road. Law does not work that way usually, not even in China.
I understand where you are coming from but it just does not work that way you break the law you have to expect the consequences if caught no matter how.
But thats not necessarily the matter of importance here, I do know sometimes laws in China get ignored knowing there is zero enforcement and if there might be a way getting away with no charges.
I just think this is important for a) GUE, the other project members and their businesses involved and b) the willingness for the local law enforcement to actually investigate in the actual cause since top priority by the officials is not necessarily truth but finding someone to blame fore their wrongful doing. Plus people might come up with the claim that some people misrepresented themselves as an NGO while having no legal status. Especially since in China there are some tight regulations in place for organizations that commonly run under the term NGO.

It is also not true that these laws do not get enforced in China in general, I was part of a group that was trying to get approval under these laws to conduct research on the sunken city in the Qiandaohu reservoir, Zhejiang Province. Haiyan had prepared the project proposal to the local and national government organizations. Diving restrictions get strictly enforced partially to protect the heritage, the other reason is because too many divers have killed themselves there.

 

[dmaziuk]

This is patent nonsense, there is no such thing as a seatbelt law. If there is a law in place it is and will be applicable. Your wrongful doing had been committed the moment you were not wearing a seatbelt this is not contingent any other misdemeanor. Now enforcement is something else but just because this has not been enforced in the past does not mean you cant or likely won't get charged for it.

Tell it to wikipedia: Seat belt laws in the United States - Wikipedia

 

[FuAn]

Thats a different thing, its about primary and secondary enforcement and has more to do with how you can be stopped by a police officer. In most states police cant stop you just for no reason without certain misdemeanor or a warrant. ie. they cant do alcohol checkpoints, but during some events some cities will cover that under their city ordinance and allow checkpoints, then you will get charged because they were allowed to stop you because of temporary regulations, even if you did not do anything else wrong.
This is about enforcement not about the law, just because it does not get primarily enforced this does not mean you are not breaking the law.
The key with the seatbelts in the US is what it takes to allow a government institution to restrict your rights as a free American and stop you on the road, it does not say you don't have to wear a seatbelt.

This is why driving under influence is such a huge problem in the US, because unless you do something wrong there is no reason to stop you and check if you are driving drunk, and of course when you are drunk you will be at your highest level of confidence that you won't do anything wrong and therefore no-one will ever find out you were driving drunk, but then when you do get stopped its not about punishing you on top of everything else for driving drunk its for actually punishing you for being stupid enough to drive drunk.

This has nothing to do with how or why the Chinese government did or did not enforce the law in question.

 

[dmaziuk]

Yes, I can see it's different: its about freedom. Sorry I meant Freedom

 

[Grus]

• Thailand is a frequent destination for various instructors in the region including GUE instructors Gideon Liew (Singapore) and Graham Blackmore (Hong Kong), most likely also Hui Jin, because its easy accessible and cheap. A typical open water course in Shanghai includes a weekend trip to Thailand or Philippines because there is close to zero local diving in China.

Again I know/knew most of the people involved some of them very well.

Sorry, I did not know them that well.
In recent 5 years or so, to my knowledge, you can have GUE Fund./Tech 1,2 courses in nearby lakes such as Qiandaohu. From the logistical side, it is easier to have one instructor fly over if it fits the instructor's schedule, IMO. For GUE Cave 1,2 courses, Mexico is a popular choice among Chinese divers. For entry level recreational course in Shanghai, you can choose the open water part in nearby lakes during summer times, or a trip abroad all year round.

I just think this is important for a) GUE, the other project members and their businesses involved and b) the willingness for the local law enforcement to actually investigate in the actual cause since top priority by the officials is not necessarily truth but finding someone to blame fore their wrongful doing. Plus people might come up with the claim that some people misrepresented themselves as an NGO while having no legal status. Especially since in China there are some tight regulations in place for organizations that commonly run under the term NGO.

I agree with your point a), but it will be less important if we limit the discussion to direct causes and remedies here.
About your point b), yes, but it won't satisfy their families/close friends/... if the officials just finding someone to blame. It's not easy for the officials to do so in this case, IMHO.
Before things actually go that bad, their families have to cooperate with local law enforcement first.

It is also not true that these laws do not get enforced in China in general, I was part of a group that was trying to get approval under these laws to conduct research on the sunken city in the Qiandaohu reservoir, Zhejiang Province. Haiyan had prepared the project proposal to the local and national government organizations. Diving restrictions get strictly enforced partially to protect the heritage, the other reason is because too many divers have killed themselves there.

So ... I suppose you have dived some places near Shanghai, right?

Thanks.
I'm trying to see if there's evidence for the SMB being deployed during deco or at depth.

I have asked that search team diver today, the answer is spool.