Two missing Thai divers in Sattahip, Thailand

[diver 85]

I know nothing about what happened on this incident but quite frankly everyone coming out of a OW class should be proficient and comfortable with a mask removed, flooded and be able to calmly maintain airway control and safely abort the dive or don a backup mask.

A mask dislodging can occur at anytime for many reasons even at OW depths and from my experience its the point at which most people panic even more so then if the regulator is taken out of there mouth.

I only post this comment since I see you are a AI and hopefully you will ensure that any students whom you are observing skill with are able to perform this skill to the required proficiency not just complete it.

John

Makes me wonder sometimes about the quality of training students are getting these days----ie running em thru like a herd of cattle in a few days...

 

[jkaterenchuk]

If it was the current that ripped off the mask, then mask skills of themselves were unlikely be only factor. The current may have been pulling him down also. That's a lot of task loading in a very hostile environment and even very skilled divers could react poorly to this. However I agree, practising diving without a mask is a useful skill for just such an event.

Yes I would agree that other events including panic could have played a role in this accident and that none of us really know how we will handle things when something does not go according to plan on a dive.

However, I would submit that if a diver is skilled and comfortable with no mask in the water then there is much more of chance that they will be more successful in working thru the task loading and hostile enviroment. In more technical classes swims without mask and unexpected mask dislodging events are part of the training in order to ensure you become comfortable breathing with no mask, keeping a water free airway and having a strategy to deal with the poor vision that results. Done properly the diver realizes its not a big event when it happens and deals with it calmly.

One strategy that I have seen employed by a pair of diving buddies was for one of them to remove their mask during their safety stop on each dive.

John

 

[InTheDrink]

Yes I would agree that other events including panic could have played a role in this accident and that none of us really know how we will handle things when something does not go according to plan on a dive.

However, I would submit that if a diver is skilled and comfortable with no mask in the water then there is much more of chance that they will be more successful in working thru the task loading and hostile enviroment. In more technical classes swims without mask and unexpected mask dislodging events are part of the training in order to ensure you become comfortable breathing with no mask, keeping a water free airway and having a strategy to deal with the poor vision that results. Done properly the diver realizes its not a big event when it happens and deals with it calmly.

One strategy that I have seen employed by a pair of diving buddies was for one of them to remove their mask during their safety stop on each dive.

John

I would be slow to criticise ((nb - not saying that you are!) the diver's training in this instance without further information. I've no issue diving without a mask and practice it weekly. But it's not on the OW or AOW course if I recall correctly so this diver may well have been adequately proficient to the extent of his training. Of course the argument could and should be made that most basic OW training doesn't prepare one for diving in other than benign conditions and that this isn't adequate.

I've no idea what the current was like but if it was strong enough to rip off a mask, it can easily escalate into panic for a diver that hasn't prepped for this eventuality. Who knows what else went wrong at the same time for this diver? When things go wrong, they go wrong all at once.

Condolences to family and friends.

 

[jkaterenchuk]

I would be slow to criticise ((nb - not saying that you are!) the diver's training in this instance without further information. I've no issue diving without a mask and practice it weekly. But it's not on the OW or AOW course if I recall correctly so this diver may well have been adequately proficient to the extent of his training. Of course the argument could and should be made that most basic OW training doesn't prepare one for diving in other than benign conditions and that this isn't adequate.

I've no idea what the current was like but if it was strong enough to rip off a mask, it can easily escalate into panic for a diver that hasn't prepped for this eventuality. Who knows what else went wrong at the same time for this diver? When things go wrong, they go wrong all at once.

Condolences to family and friends.

Just to further clarify my comments are directed towards the skill and comfort of mask removal and directly prompted by a AI making a comment in this area.

I have no direct knowledge of this instructor, or student or the situation on the day of the dive and have refrained from speculating in this area. Even though I am in Thailand now and have dove in this area many times including a week ago and am personally familiar with the level of current in the area.

I would also say that I believe that mask removal and replacement and no mask underwater swim is part of the PADI OW class. Additionally, I believe in the AOW class which is really a bunch of OW dives that it would not be beyond standards to have student remove there mask especially if the particular dive conditions might produce such and event like might happen on a drift dive. I was making the point that instructors can simply have the student do the skill once and show that they can do it or they can have them become comfortable with the skill.

Anyways, I have said enough on this issue and will refrain from further comments for fear that people may be confused over these generic situations and this specific incident.

John

 

[deepstops]

CDNN :: Police Suspect Headless Corpse Is Missing Diveevoluton Scuba Instructor

Police suspect headless corpse is missing Diveevolution scuba instructor
by LUTHER MONROE @ CDNN - Cyber Diver News Network

June 22, 2009

PATTAYA, Thailand — A headless corpse that washed up on the beach near Pattaya could be a scuba diving instructor who disappeared in May.

Police told CDNN the body was found by local fishermen about two miles south of Koh Rong.

The location where the remains were found is in the same general area where a Diveevolution scuba diving accident resulted in the death of 25-year-old student diver, Pote Sawangwongseri, and the disappearance of 35-year-old scuba diving instructor, Wiwat Thiraronkorrakul, who worked for the Pattaya-based dive shop.

Police said an initial examination of the remains indicated the victim died recently but not less than one month ago.

Authorities said an autopsy will be performed to determine the identity of the victim.

Police have contacted relatives of the missing Diveevolution employee to help with the identification of the remains.

 

[Crowley]

Hi there - I thought I would contribute a bit cos I used to work for Mermaids and I know the two guys involved in the recovery personally.

I have no specifics about the accident but thought I'd give a general overview of conditions at the Hardeep (Sudhaddip)

The wreck lies between two small islands and during the tidal motion this can cause some very strong and unpredictable currents.

The ship is about 60 metres long and resting on its side at a maximum depth of 28 metres (on average) and generally speaking, in the lee of the wreck, the currents are fairly mild and the wreck can be dived even with strong currents in the area. Move outside of the lea of the wreck though, and you get pulled off very very rapidly indeed. Currents there can rage at easily 6 or 7 knots - enough to pull masks off and cause regulators to freeflow. At one point when the hardeep had two marker buoys fore and aft, you could see each buoy moving in different directions at the surface!

Tide charts are available for Samaesan diving on a quarterly hour basis, so in general you can predict with a reasonable degree of accuracy what the current will do. BUT it can change very, very quickly indeed.

The wildcard is the Samaesan Hole, which has been referred to in previous posts. Most of the gulf of Thailand is about 40 metres deep, maximum, but the Hole is a random depression that extends almost 80 metres deep - it's where most of the tec divers in the area do their thing. Sometimes, however, the movement of the tidal water creates currents that not only pull you along, but also *down* in the direction of the hole. It's a thoroughly unpleasant experience. I know people who've been on safety stops and been pulled right back to the ship.

I've been on that wreck when it's gone from slack to raging in less than 20 minutes and these poor fellows will sadly probably not be the last to die there. Most of the accessible parts of the wreck are wide open and easy but there are small passages and places where it's possible to get stuck.

Tiger sharks, sand tigers and bull sharks have also been reported in the area. The tigers I know for a fact but the others I only have on good hearsay.

Also since somebody mentioned it - I've seen scuba tanks referred to in the thai press as 'oxygen bottles' before...

Condolences with the deceased - Russell Martin (CD at Mermaids) and Dave Hildreth (tech instructor) are damn good blokes and volunteer for this stuff when it happens. Big up to them for helping out. They probably know more about the hardeep than everybody else in the world combined!

Cheers

C.

 

[jkaterenchuk]

Most of the gulf of Thailand is about 40 metres deep, maximum, but the Hole is a random depression that extends almost 80 metres deep - it's where most of the tec divers in the area do their thing.

Condolences with the deceased - Russell Martin (CD at Mermaids) and Dave Hildreth (tech instructor) are damn good blokes and volunteer for this stuff when it happens. Big up to them for helping out. They probably know more about the hardeep than everybody else in the world combined!

Cheers

C.

Crowley

Not to take anything away from the high and changing currents caution you raise in the area however I am not sure that your statements about most of the Gulf being 40M deep Max or these two individuals knowing more about the Hardeep than everyone else in the world combined is quite accurate. Maybe you can explain your source of this information.

I personally have see a large portion of the Gulf being 60-70M deep at least on the Nautical charts I have looked at and some of the place I have been diving off shore. The wiki lists the average depth at 45M with the deepest being 80M.

Also, I recently sat thru a informal talk by Peter Walker and received a copy of his DVD on the History of the Hardeep Wreck. He has made untold dives on the wreck over a long period of time and also did the research and release a the DVD on his finding on the history of the wreck which incidently is really the Suddhadib Wreck. Here is a link to further information. Hardeep Wreck

I am sure Russell and Dave have made many dives on the wreck as have many others in the Pattaya area but your statement might not give credit where it is do.

John

 

[Selachimorpha]

I agree with everything Crowley has said, I used to know Russel and Dave, and have been taught at verious levels by both of them (and Crowley), excellent instructors. The currents in the Hardeep/Samaesan area can be extreme and change quickly, Dave and Russel know the area extremely well, when I was there Dave had logged close to 1000 dives just on the Hardeep Wreck itself, thats not including all the area around the wreck, ie the hole etc.
Having dived there a lot myself it is very easy to see how accidents can happen. My condolences to the divers involved and their families.

 

[Crowley]

John by answering your post I'm going off topic (in fact we've already gone there, so let's not belabour the point). My "depth" comment was not intended to be a scientific study of the gulf of Thailand, rather my point is that it is generally very shallow, which means big currents and crap visibility. It's certainly accurate for the area around the Hardeep. Also I mean no disrespect to any others; Peter Walker included - Russ and Dave are probably on his christmas card list!

I am awaiting a response on the incident details - however with no disrespect to the Thai authorities whatever appears in the press may have very little bearing on the truth!

Safe diving,

C.

 

[jkaterenchuk]

John by answering your post I'm going off topic (in fact we've already gone there, so let's not belabour the point). My "depth" comment was not intended to be a scientific study of the gulf of Thailand, rather my point is that it is generally very shallow, which means big currents and crap visibility. It's certainly accurate for the area around the Hardeep. Also I mean no disrespect to any others; Peter Walker included - Russ and Dave are probably on his christmas card list!

I am awaiting a response on the incident details - however with no disrespect to the Thai authorities whatever appears in the press may have very little bearing on the truth!

Safe diving,

C.

C.

Your right on with the Hardeep area depths and visability.
No disrespect meant just wanted to provide the other pieces of information. I am sure for most recreational divers perspective what you provided was fine...from a technical divers perspective the limits open up quite a bit. I just did not want to have to argue with someone 6 months from now that read what you said on here and after one or no visits to Thailand is suddenly an expert on diving in the area by virtue of reading your post. After these things are repeated enough times even if not accurate or by knowledgeable people they seem to become true once enough people have read them.

Again your perspective of the media and reporting in Thailand is bang on...in fact if you go to the Thailand sub forum on SB you can see an example in this incident in which the dive shop grapevine in the area is also not necessarily passing along correct information.

John