Deep South Divers
Contributor
I'm not sure what you mean. How are latex gloves more redundant than nitrile ones?
Do you mean with the wrist seals cut back?
Do you mean with the wrist seals cut back?
Ultima Dry Glove System question
- Thread starter Basking Ridge Diver
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In the Santi ring system, smooth (latex) gloves actually have two sealing points (both o-rings). Lined gloves seal only with one (the proximal wide ring), if installed according to Santi instructions.
Deep South Divers
Contributor
Very interesting!
I knew that the SANTI rings sealed against the gloves in an unconventional way... And that SANTI's installation recommendations required the INTERIOR of the glove to seal, which theoretically should cause a weeping issue with any lined glove, which the 720 is - as well as the more common PVC variants like the 660, 620, 490, etc. Many latex gloves are "flocked," meaning that they're made with an adhesive on the inside of the glove and then dusted with fabric lint to make them easier to slip on and off and more comfortable. Theoretically, even a flocked glove should have an issue with weeping.
I was surprised to see that weeping doesn't seem to be an issue for those that use lined or flocked gloves with SANTI rings.
I was NOT surprised to see that owners of SANTI rings have come up with their own "turn end of glove inside out" method of installing heavier, non-latex gloves on the rings so that the rings seal to the outside of the glove rather than the inside.
As such, there seems to be a lot of confusion as to which method is best for sealing a more robust glove to a SANTI ring... But whether the glove is installed via the SANTI method or the inside-out method (which has become known as the "Becky Method" apparently), the only drysuit divers that have reported leaks at all have been SANTI owners.
I'm not saying that SANTI rings aren't any good... I'm just saying that statistically, nobody in this thread has reported leaks between the glove and the rings EXCEPT for two different SANTI SmartRing owners.
I agree with you about redundancy... It's a good thing! And dry is what we're all after; for some (like divers doing long decompression) the importance can be paramount. But redundant or not, to the best of my knowledge, the SANTI rings have been the only ones to reportedly leak.
My point isn't that SANTI rings are no good... I am not qualified to have that opinion, as I've never owned a set. My point is simply that a redundant seal design may not be the only factor that produces the driest dive... Or rather, the SANTI SmartRings may not be the most robust ring system available, redundant seal or not.
I can assure you of this: If I found the possibility of a leaking dryglove absolutely life-threatening like you're describing, I most certainly would NOT dive with a comparatively fragile latex glove. Instead, I'd opt for something with cut, abrasion, puncture, and tear resistance that would promise to hold up even when brushed against a wreck or snagged on sharp metal or rocks.
For comparison, I pulled the hazard certifications up for three SHOWA gloves (EN388). In each of these categories, a glove is rated 0-5 in terms of how well the glove resists that specific hazard:
Abrasion
Nitrile 720: 3
PVC 620: 3
Latex 558: 2
Cut
Nitrile 720: 1
PVC 620: 1
Latex 558: 0
Tear
Nitrile 720: 3
PVC 620: 2
Latex 558: 1
Puncture
Nitrile 720: 2
PVC 620: 1
Latex 558: 1
Bottom line? If you're truly as worried about a glove flood as you say you are, you'll avoid comparatively delicate latex gloves.
I knew that the SANTI rings sealed against the gloves in an unconventional way... And that SANTI's installation recommendations required the INTERIOR of the glove to seal, which theoretically should cause a weeping issue with any lined glove, which the 720 is - as well as the more common PVC variants like the 660, 620, 490, etc. Many latex gloves are "flocked," meaning that they're made with an adhesive on the inside of the glove and then dusted with fabric lint to make them easier to slip on and off and more comfortable. Theoretically, even a flocked glove should have an issue with weeping.
I was surprised to see that weeping doesn't seem to be an issue for those that use lined or flocked gloves with SANTI rings.
I was NOT surprised to see that owners of SANTI rings have come up with their own "turn end of glove inside out" method of installing heavier, non-latex gloves on the rings so that the rings seal to the outside of the glove rather than the inside.
As such, there seems to be a lot of confusion as to which method is best for sealing a more robust glove to a SANTI ring... But whether the glove is installed via the SANTI method or the inside-out method (which has become known as the "Becky Method" apparently), the only drysuit divers that have reported leaks at all have been SANTI owners.
I'm not saying that SANTI rings aren't any good... I'm just saying that statistically, nobody in this thread has reported leaks between the glove and the rings EXCEPT for two different SANTI SmartRing owners.
I agree with you about redundancy... It's a good thing! And dry is what we're all after; for some (like divers doing long decompression) the importance can be paramount. But redundant or not, to the best of my knowledge, the SANTI rings have been the only ones to reportedly leak.
My point isn't that SANTI rings are no good... I am not qualified to have that opinion, as I've never owned a set. My point is simply that a redundant seal design may not be the only factor that produces the driest dive... Or rather, the SANTI SmartRings may not be the most robust ring system available, redundant seal or not.
I can assure you of this: If I found the possibility of a leaking dryglove absolutely life-threatening like you're describing, I most certainly would NOT dive with a comparatively fragile latex glove. Instead, I'd opt for something with cut, abrasion, puncture, and tear resistance that would promise to hold up even when brushed against a wreck or snagged on sharp metal or rocks.
For comparison, I pulled the hazard certifications up for three SHOWA gloves (EN388). In each of these categories, a glove is rated 0-5 in terms of how well the glove resists that specific hazard:
Abrasion
Nitrile 720: 3
PVC 620: 3
Latex 558: 2
Cut
Nitrile 720: 1
PVC 620: 1
Latex 558: 0
Tear
Nitrile 720: 3
PVC 620: 2
Latex 558: 1
Puncture
Nitrile 720: 2
PVC 620: 1
Latex 558: 1
Bottom line? If you're truly as worried about a glove flood as you say you are, you'll avoid comparatively delicate latex gloves.
Degenerate
Contributor
So much this, I'll never look at another pair of latex gloves again after trying the 720s, nitrile for life!
10 degree (celsius) water for 40-50 min repeated dives witout an underglove, no issues.
I'm incredibly impressed with how warm these are, I fully expected I would need a thick glove under when I first inspected the thickness of them but no way josé, they are good to go and dexterity is great!
Deep South Divers
Contributor
So much this, I'll never look at another pair of latex gloves again after trying the 720s, nitrile for life!
10 degree (celsius) water for 40-50 min repeated dives witout an underglove, no issues.
I'm incredibly impressed with how warm these are, I fully expected I would need a thick glove under when I first inspected the thickness of them but no way josé, they are good to go and dexterity is great!
Agreed! And while thinner latex gloves are certainly going to be more dexterous and provide better tactile feel and function than any other material (including nitrile), that advantage goes away when you wear a thick underglove to stay warm.
...And in comparing a latex dryglove with a thick underglove to a nitrile dryglove with a thin underglove (or no underglove at all), you get a LOT more flexibility, dexterity, and tactile feel out of a nitrile setup.
...Which is why the 720s are so great.
Well... That, and the fact that they're super tough and won't leak.
They are ok with unlined gloves, and Santis own latex gloves fill the safety requirement as being tough enough.
When Santi released their glove ring system, they made a point that it is compatible with "all drygloves". I don't hear that anymore so they may have stepped back.
I am really not advocating Santi rings as perfect or anything. Personally I am moving towards permanently glued drygloves.
Degenerate
Contributor
Honestly I feel the dexterity with my 720s is great.Agreed! And while thinner latex gloves are certainly going to be more dexterous and provide better tactile feel and function than any other material (including nitrile), that advantage goes away when you wear a thick underglove to stay warm.
...And in comparing a latex dryglove with a thick underglove to a nitrile dryglove with a thin underglove (or no underglove at all), you get a LOT more flexibility, dexterity, and tactile feel out of a nitrile setup.
...Which is why the 720s are so great.
Well... That, and the fact that they're super tough and won't leak.
I can grab a boltsnap and feel exactly what is going on with it, no need to guess that I've maybe opened it while trying to clip it to something, it's great.
If I'm down at 10m or deeper the pressure will make sure there is absolute zero slack in the gloves, which makes the above even easier.
The only thing I'm not a massive fan of is the rings as they can feel a little bit in the way if I'm reaching for my valves sometimes, but it's more an issue of practice makes perfect rather than actually being in the way.
Deep South Divers
Contributor
Call Dive Right In Scuba. They can get individual parts to the Waterproof Ultima Dryglove Ring System and could probably set yoi up with a second set of rings.
That said, the 720s ARE very thin - much thinner than the PVC counterparts like the 660 and 620. They're almost as thin as a latex glove, and much tougher and less likely to get damaged and leak.
As such, I don't see much point in having two sets of rings with "summer" gloves on one and "winter" gloves on the other. What'll likely happen is that you'll end up loving the 720s so much in all conditions due to their toughness and durability and tactile function that you'll end up loading both rings with them.
...Which I suppose would give you a "backup" set of gloves at the dive site... But you'll probably never need them - the 720s are seriously tough and easily good for 50 or 100 dives even in the worst of conditions.
Most divers never do 50 or 100 drysuit dives their entire lives.
That said, the 720s ARE very thin - much thinner than the PVC counterparts like the 660 and 620. They're almost as thin as a latex glove, and much tougher and less likely to get damaged and leak.
As such, I don't see much point in having two sets of rings with "summer" gloves on one and "winter" gloves on the other. What'll likely happen is that you'll end up loving the 720s so much in all conditions due to their toughness and durability and tactile function that you'll end up loading both rings with them.
...Which I suppose would give you a "backup" set of gloves at the dive site... But you'll probably never need them - the 720s are seriously tough and easily good for 50 or 100 dives even in the worst of conditions.
Most divers never do 50 or 100 drysuit dives their entire lives.
Others have researched this and basically the undocumented consensus is that the cost for the extra set of rings is not economically viable. The cost of a pair of extra rings is more than half the cost of the entire set, typically with a shipping charge on top of the cost of the rings.
If you are diving with a set of gloves that have an attached thick liner then the recommendation is to switch to a glove without an attached liner so you can vary the thickness of the under-gloves you wear with the change in seasonal/location temperatures.
-Z
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