Ultima Dry Glove System question

[Deep South Divers]

Yep... Working on it.

As it is now, the new BARE Sentry is a great suit, and just debuted in April. Essentially they take 7mm neoprene and crush it to just 1.5mm thick and then cut it into panels for the drysuit. From there, the panels are WELDED (not sewn) together. The thing is durable as heck, stretchy (which means you can dive it with NO air in it), and believe it or not, NEGATIVELY buoyant. It requires LESS weight to dive than a trilam does... All while being more comfortable and more reliable than a trilaminate drysuit. It's totally counterintuitive - just like the 720s are.

Diving it is a real treat - it basically dives like a 5mm wetsuit, except that you're warm and dry inside. Nothing else is quite like it.

I can't for the life of me think of one good reason why anyone would dive any other material than hypercompressed ("crushed") neoprene... Especially a trilaminate suit with virtually zero stretch to it at all.

...But hey, some people hear "neoprene," and think, "wetsuit material" and "buoyant as heck" and just move on. For those people, I really need to make a stretch trilaminate drysuit that approaches hypercompressed neoprene in terms of durability.

The industry has played here and there with trilaminates that have a polyurethane core instead of a butyl rubber core. PU is lighter and has considerably more stretch than butyl rubber ("latex"), and some manufacturers even claim it as "breathable"... Although I haven't yet dived any PU suit that ever bubbled... So I have my doubts about that claim past maybe some pointless gas exchange at the microscopic level. The real problem with PU-cored suits, though, is the lack of durability: In all cases that I know of, the trilaminate fabric eventually delaminates - meaning that the layers come apart. PU trilaminate fabric simply doesn't adhere to itself well for long.

Nitrie - which was originally designed as a synthetic replacement for butyl rubber (latex) - may be the answer, given that it has other qualities about it that are advantageous... Namely, puncture resistance, tear resistance, and natural insulation against temperature exchange. Oh yeah - and it takes well to adhesion.

It's also lighter than butyl rubber, and can be made thinner for the same amount of durability... So a trilaminate drysuit with a nitrile core would tend to be lighter, warmer, and more durable compared to current trilaminate drysuits.

Personally, I'd focus on creating a drysuit not only with the nitrile core, but one with significant stretch to it... As in the fabrics laminated to either side of it would need to be stretchable too and not restrict the nitrile's natural movement. A drysuit that stretches is loads better than one that doesn't for a variety of reasons... But diver comfort, movement, and the reduced need for an internal bubble are probably the biggest reasons.

Anyway - yeah - nitrile core. Y'all will see it soon.

 

[Deep South Divers]

@Deep South Divers Do you know any nitrile gloves without textile lining. Those would be great for ring systems where 720s can't be reliably installed.

Okay, I had a moment to sit down and look and try to find what it is that you're looking for... Essentially an unlined version of the 720.

The good news is that SHOWA - whom we all know and trust - DOES make a few versions of what it is that you're looking for.

The bad news is that a LOT of the ruggedness and durability of the glove is sacrificed when you remove the liner of the glove, which acts like a skeletal structure. In other words... If you want the kind of durability that you find in the 720, you're gonna need to keep the liner - and therefore the snap-on rings (SANTI, KUBI, Ultima, whatever).

The other bad news is this: If you're going to dive an unlined glove, then you're probably marrying your undergloves. That is - the glove interior's bare surface, whether butyl rubber/latex or nitrile - is probably not going to be a very comfortable or warm option, and you're probably always going to need to use them with an underglove... Which somewhat defeats the purpose of choosing a glove that has no liner in it at all.

Of course, if the purpose of choosing a glove with no liner at all is simply so that your SiTech QCS or QCP rings will seal, then a linerless glove will do exactly that - just know that you'll always want to wear undergloves, and kitting up is going to be a bit more awkward since you can't clip and unclip your gloves as you're donning the suit.

...But if you're set on going "ringless," anyway, then read on:

If you comparing UNLINED gloves to other unlined gloves (as in, "you want to bypass snap-on rings and semi-permanently install gloved directly to your suit rings in place of a wrist seal,") it CAN be done... And nitrile would definitely be a better choice than butyl rubber/latex - which is what all of those gloves usually are.

SHOWA makes the following:

717
727
737

All of them are essentially the same glove, but in different thicknesses... All of them with no liner in them at all. They are all nitrile. The 717 is 11 mil thick and generally regarded as a disposable glove. The 727 is 15 mil thick, and the 737 is 22 mil thick. Logic denotes that the 737 would be the most rugged, but the numbers say that they're all equal in that regard - not great compared to the 720, the 620, the 660, or the 490 and 495... Which are all the "tough" gloves when it comes to drygloves... But worlds better than any butyl rubber/latex glove, specifically when considering puncture and tear resistance.

All three models look like this:

It's definitely a funky color, but whether that's good or bad is in the eye of the beholder.

Of note, I found that SHOWA has a new offering that's essentially a 720 in a different color with an ADDITIONAL dip of nitrile on the palm, which boosts the abrasion protection one level. To me, that'd be simply more of the same - and therefore good - but I don't know if I could bring myself to wear the color... Jokes of "The Green Lantern" may apply here:

...So there ya go... What you asked for, and more.

 

[mafi]

Hey @Deep South Divers, did you have a chance to fully compare G1 vs. Xerotherm?

4E rep told me that the G1 should be warmer than Xerotherm, but I think that especially deeper (30m+) the G1 would lose a lot of thickness, just like the neoprene does (not an issue with Xerotherm)

 

[Deep South Divers]

I've dived them both, but quickly preferred the Xerotherm gloves to the G1 due to their increased dexterity and tactile feel.

Under the 720s (which are already much warmer than any latex or PVC glove), I couldn't tell much of a difference in warmth.

Most of my diving (work-related) is very shallow and I can't attest to the difference in warmth at significant depth... But I'd be inclined to favor the Xerotherms there too, since they're not going to compress like closed-cell neoprene does.

Bottom line? 720s and a set of Xerotherms in waters below about 55 degrees F - or the Burton Powerstretch glove liners (essentially the same product with some minor cosmetic differences).

 

[Degenerate]

Of note, I found that SHOWA has a new offering that's essentially a 720 in a different color with an ADDITIONAL dip of nitrile on the palm, which boosts the abrasion protection one level. To me, that'd be simply more of the same - and therefore good - but I don't know if I could bring myself to wear the color... Jokes of "The Green Lantern" may apply here:

View attachment 538865

...So there ya go... What you asked for, and more.

Honestly these look awesome, and as someone who has punctured a 720 glove I would not object to another layer of nitrile.
Just got a batch of 720s, but I will definitely look out for those in the future

 

[Deep South Divers]

They won't be hard to see.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

Merry and I are going to the Galapagos in January. We keep reading about having to hold onto lava in strong currents. I just ordered two pair of 379s.

 

[Deep South Divers]

Well shoot... If y'all don't have a problem with the color, maybe I shouldn't either.

They'd already be on my rings for testing if they were blue or black.

Max, full review please.

 

[Degenerate]

Waiting to hear back from my usual Showa supplier about getting my hands on these, they look and sound exactly like what I need.

 

[MidwestDiver1994]

Noob question:

I have a Bare Trilam suit that I had a very reputable shop install the SI Tech Virgo system (oval rings + gloves). I have dove the suit 10 times without a single dry dive. The suit is leaking at the cuffs. I have tried new seals and the shop leak tested with passing results. Still no dry dives. Both arms soaked.

So here is what I have deduced. The leak test fills the suit with air which is the opposite kind of pressure the suit sees at depth. Instead I inflated the suit with plugs (drinking cups and cooking bowel) at the wrist and neck. Then dunked the arms with silicone seals installed but no glove attached in my bath tub. So far the suit holds pressure and not bubbles or leaks. Then I squeezed the wrist about 1-2" inches behind the cuff to simulate the pressure at depth. Sure enough a flood of bubbles came from the cuff. Same thing on both arms. Essentially the torque at the wrist is unsealing around the cuff. I don't see how this design works in any suit unless you have 5" thick wrists.

Now I know these seem to work for everyone else so something is wrong here. Short of installing hose clamps on the outside of my suit to maintain that seal what can I do. I have a video of all this I could share over a PM if anyone has some constructive suggestions.