Unit doff/don question

[TMHeimer]

No, and that would not be in the standards anyway. Standards are strict rules that must be followed, not recommendations. PADI has a teaching guide that provides recommendations, but those are not requirements.

PADI's standards are written in such a way that pretty much any of a variety of approaches can be used. For example, their standards for alternative air sources allow for the traditional "golden triangle," bundeed necklace with long hose, Air II--pretty much anything you have ever heard of. They allow for primary donate, secondary donate, and secondary take.

Understood. Is there anything that addresses the question in the PADI teaching guide?
I, along with the guy in the article, want to know what are the agencies' take on this, or is it simply up to the instructor and use your intelligence and common sense? There are a few things I've read about in PADI materials that really just were a matter of common sense, yet advice was given. Stuff like-- don't let the O2 bottle empty when on the patient, or-- don't try lifting something more than 10 pounds using the BCD. Other stuff I can't think of off the top of my head.

 

[boulderjohn]

Is there anything that addresses the question in the PADI teaching guide?

Beats me. I don't have one.

Frankly, I doubt it. I don't think many people who are not on this thread have given it a lot of thought. I sure haven't. I have never in my life warn anything like the amount of weight some of you are talking about, and I have dived in 7mm farmer john's and drysuits with extra heavy undergarments in Puget Sound. It's been a long time since I used a BCD with integrated weight pockets for my own diving, and when was in cold water with more than the usual weight, I did indeed distribute that weight between different locations. That was mostly because my integrated weight pockets did not hold a whole lot of weight.

I also distribute weight for the same of trim. For example, my single tank wing has pockets on the cam bands, meaning that I will have much of my weight distributed along the tank. When I need more, I have choices, including putting some on the waist strap or using a weight belt. I can also choose between using a stainless steel backplate or an aluminum backplate, depending upon my weighting needs. With a single tank, I generally choose SS. With double AL 80s. I still use SS. With my Worthington steel doubles, I use aluminum.

My point is that there are lots of ways of distributing weight, and you do not want to write standards that exclude a legitimate strategy.

There is also another problem with putting recommendations in the Guide to Teaching. Many people cannot tell the difference between a recommendation and a standard. If you go back a decade on ScubaBoard and dig out all the maddening, enraged debates on neutral buoyancy teaching, you will find what must have been hundreds of posts by DevonDiver in which he tried to convince everyone that any instructor who did what we suggested in our neutral buoyancy article (an article co-written by a top level PADI staff member and published in their professional journal) would be expelled by PADI for violating standards. He kept quoting the Guide to Teaching, and we kept responding with quotations from PADI leaders saying that the Guide to Teaching has suggestions, and suggestions are not standards. Nothing in the standards indicated a problem with teaching neutrally and in horizontal trim from the very beginning of class, but because there were suggestions in the Guide to Teaching that had divers on the knees, DevonDiver insisted over and over and over and over and over and over that doing otherwise would get you expelled.

 

[oly5050user]

A question for instructors but I put it here for all to benefit. One I should probably know the answer to.

Every time I've done the unit doff/don skill in OW I have worn a weight belt as well as having integrated weights (common here, of course). In the pool, only the belt. In the pool I assume it always worked because of the tank's weight (unless near empty). The skill was done on knees (but same question here if done neutrally).

Question is-- Suppose you are wearing either a 5 or 7 mil wetsuit and BC with a lot of intergrated weight, but no belt. How do you get the skill done without floating up? Other than just don't let go....?

Simple just slide bc off on your right and place unit on right knee replace by putting right arm in them left

 

[boulderjohn]

I also want to comment on what I said in the first post about moving the gear intelligently. When I was a new instructor and still teaching on the knees, I learned very quickly that my demonstration of the weight belt removal and replacement had to emphasize keeping the removed weight belt close to the body. Holding it out at arm's length does not work well. The same is true for doing the skill in mid water.

 

[Julius SCHMIDT]

Here is DevonDivers website, a gold mine of techniques for self improvement for divers of all levels

Technical Diving Articles | Techniques | Knowledgebase


Balanced Rig | 8/of9 | Scuba Buoyancy Masterclass

 

[TMHeimer]

Beats me. I don't have one.

Frankly, I doubt it. I don't think many people who are not on this thread have given it a lot of thought. I sure haven't. I have never in my life warn anything like the amount of weight some of you are talking about, and I have dived in 7mm farmer john's and drysuits with extra heavy undergarments in Puget Sound. It's been a long time since I used a BCD with integrated weight pockets for my own diving, and when was in cold water with more than the usual weight, I did indeed distribute that weight between different locations. That was mostly because my integrated weight pockets did not hold a whole lot of weight.

I also distribute weight for the same of trim. For example, my single tank wing has pockets on the cam bands, meaning that I will have much of my weight distributed along the tank. When I need more, I have choices, including putting some on the waist strap or using a weight belt. I can also choose between using a stainless steel backplate or an aluminum backplate, depending upon my weighting needs. With a single tank, I generally choose SS. With double AL 80s. I still use SS. With my Worthington steel doubles, I use aluminum.

My point is that there are lots of ways of distributing weight, and you do not want to write standards that exclude a legitimate strategy.

There is also another problem with putting recommendations in the Guide to Teaching. Many people cannot tell the difference between a recommendation and a standard. If you go back a decade on ScubaBoard and dig out all the maddening, enraged debates on neutral buoyancy teaching, you will find what must have been hundreds of posts by DevonDiver in which he tried to convince everyone that any instructor who did what we suggested in our neutral buoyancy article (an article co-written by a top level PADI staff member and published in their professional journal) would be expelled by PADI for violating standards. He kept quoting the Guide to Teaching, and we kept responding with quotations from PADI leaders saying that the Guide to Teaching has suggestions, and suggestions are not standards. Nothing in the standards indicated a problem with teaching neutrally and in horizontal trim from the very beginning of class, but because there were suggestions in the Guide to Teaching that had divers on the knees, DevonDiver insisted over and over and over and over and over and over that doing otherwise would get you expelled.

Yeah I see your point. When it says an OW cert. diver has a recommended limit of 60 feet I would understand it says "recommended". Obviously there are many who still think it is some hard & fast rule (standard). I think there is something as well about how you can safely extend your depth without being AOW. Again, common sense.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

An EXCELLENT question!

When I was a newbie, I was diving in a 7mm Farmer John and conventional BC with integrated weights. I needed a ton of lead, all of which was in my weight pockets. Just like the industry "said."

One day, I got entangled in some bull kelp off the Sonoma (Calif.) coast and my buddy was nowhere to be seen. Unlike giant kelp, you can't simply "snap" the stipes of bull kelp. They're like ropes.

So, the only way to extricate myself was to "doff" my BC and tank, while in midwater, untangle it and then "don" it back on.

As soon as I had gotten the BC/tank unit off, I realized that I was in a world of potential disaster. The only thing keeping my only source of gas from plunging to the bottom while I rocketed to the surface was my grip on the BC shoulder strap. Should I lose that grip, I would be FUBAR. I was very mindful and very careful, even though the surge had other ideas, and managed to free my gear of the kelp and get it back on my where it belonged, so I could finish off my dive safely.

However, that was the last time I ever dove with fully integrated weights. Immediately after, I split my weights between the BC pockets and a weight belt. Later, I went to a backplate and weight system, splitting weights between a belt and the backplate itself.

I think you describe the general scenario of why UW scuba kit removal and replacement is not required in open water. It should be, but the industry can’t even get instructors to weight students properly.

 

[boulderjohn]

Yeah I see your point. When it says an OW cert. diver has a recommended limit of 60 feet I would understand it says "recommended". Obviously there are many who still think it is some hard & fast rule (standard). I think there is something as well about how you can safely extend your depth without being AOW. Again, common sense.

In my post I was just talking about the difference in OW requirements and recommendations for instruction. There are absolutely NO requirements for diving once you are certified, because no agency has the legal authority to govern your lives.

 

[TMHeimer]

In my post I was just talking about the difference in OW requirements and recommendations for instruction. There are absolutely NO requirements for diving once you are certified, because no agency has the legal authority to govern your lives.

Right. No requirements, but recommendations.---ie. advice.

 

[TMHeimer]

I think you describe the general scenario of why UW scuba kit removal and replacement is not required in open water. It should be, but the industry can’t even get instructors to weight students properly.

I always wondered why you only had to do it on the surface at the checkouts......