User Guide and decompression information

[Bastianhund]

Hello,

It seems like there has been a few changes to the User Guides recently. As an example given the newest UG for my DX do no longer have include detailed information about:

• Decompression ceiling
• Decompression floor
• Ceiling range
• Decompression range
• Error mode if ceiling is violated
• Etc.

I am currently teaching a student to use his new Suunto Zoop Nova. I was stunned to learn his UG do not give any detailed information about the above.

Why does Suunto not find it necessarily to explain the very core functionality of a dive computer? What is the argument of purchasing a Suunto dive computer if the user is unable to learn how to interpret the information about decompression given during real time diving?

In the first soft copy UG for my DX these information was more or less thoroughly explained over a total of almost four pages(!). Now it seems like the above mentioned definitions are barely explained under "Terms". Because the DX is advertised as a "Full Technical Dive Computer" I find it strange no real information is given on how to interpret the decompression information.

BR,
Morten

 

[Bastianhund]

Nobody from Suunto who can elaborate on this?

 

[Zef]

I don't have a Zoop Novo or a Vyper Novo but after reading your post above I down loaded the user manuals for both off the web.

I have a Vyper Air, Vyper 2, and a Vyper so I am intimately familiar with both the manuals and the functions of these 3 computers.

It seems that Suunto made some changes to the information displayed on the 2 new Novo models. I am not 100%, but from reading the manuals they do not show arrows to indicate the ceiling, floor, and decompression zones. While I agree that the manual for the new computers is not as thorough, I imagine that the info in question is displayed more intuitively such as with labels. I don't have either of the new Novo computers so as I stated I cant be 100% sure....but if the info is displayed more intuitively with labels then that may be a step up and playing with/familiarizing oneself with the computer with the manual in hand may be enough to gain an understanding of the computer's functions.

The definitions they provide throughout the manual are adequate, albeit brief.

-Zef

 

[Bastianhund]

I have not taken the new Zoop Novo models beyond the point where the dive changes from a "No Deco Dive" to a "Decompression Dive". Hence I do not really know what is displayed when the "No Deco Time" runs out. This is because I only do recreational dive courses and I am not allowed to dive my students into any decompression obligations.

I am dealing with novice and experienced divers on a daily basis. Most of them dives with Suunto computers. What everybody seems to be able to figure out is how to read the actual depth, maximum depth, dive time and water temperature. That is very intuitive......and you do not need a dive computer to get those information. What almost nobody can figure out is how to interpret the information related to "Mandatory Safety Stop" and "Decompression Stop" (extract from old DX UG attached this post). So based on my real life experience the seasoned recreational diver do not find the information about ceiling, floor, decompression range and ceiling range very intuitive. They have occasionally seen it displayed during dives they have been doing. However they do not really know what the information means. It would be fair to say most of them have no clue at all.

I have 2 pcs of Vyper, 1 pcs of D6i and 1 pcs of DX. After the "No Deco Time" runs out all of them will display an estimated total ascent time with ceiling, and ceiling range information throughout the remaining dive time. I simply do not believe this has changed with the newer models. Even though Suunto has removed the information about "Decompression ceiling", "Decompression floor", "Ceiling range" and "Decompression range" from the new UG's my DX still works as it's supposed to (joking). Let's see if this is still true after I get the firmware updated later today(!)

Nevertheless I got a reply from Suunto Customer Support appologizing for the missing information in the new UG's. The issue is currently been evaluated by "Higher Level Support Team". I haven't heard anything back for many weeks now. I guess even Suunto can't explain what is going on here.

/Morten

 

[Zef]

Not sure what the issue is in understanding the issues you mention. The Vyper, Vyper 2, and Vyper Air manuals explain these functions of the respective computers fairly clearly. The issue seems to come down to the recreational diver themself....In my experience most folks spend very little time familiarizing themselves with there computer and its manual. The standard take is that they can strap in on their wrist and jump in the water and it will give them the info they need to execute basic dives. I have been diving since 1995, I dive with instructors, dive masters, master divers, and folks with all sorts of other certifications. Ask any of them about Rock Bottom air management and almost all of them will look at you like you have 3 heads. Give them an explanation and they are dismissive of it as being too technical. I have been through SSI, PADI, and NAUI classes and none of them through their entire regime go into any detail about gas management other than scant mention of the rule of 3rds. My experience is that most recreational divers focus more on air as their limiting factor and only give secondary if any consideration to no-deco time. The average diver seems to surface and discuss how long their dive was and how much air they did or didn't use during that duration. There never seems to be much discussion if any about no-deco time UNTIL someone sees some info on their wrist, while underwater, that they neither recognize nor understand. Then, as they worry if they are going to get bent or not they concern themselves with what that info means.

A dive computer can be viewed as a simple device that provides basic information or it can be viewed as a highly technical device that provides a wealth of information that must be understood to be useful. If one chooses to see their computer as the latter then they need to STUDY their user manual and really get to know their computer so that the info is more than syntax and conveys actual meaning. Not many, in my experience, want to go put forth that kind of effort.

With the new Vyper Novo and Zoop Novo, perhaps Suunto did indeed leave information out of the manual or perhaps they simplified data as it is displayed so that the average diver can understand this data just as they understand the basic dive time, depth, no-deco time when they pull it out of the box, strap it on, and jump in the water. Without a Vyper Novo or Zoop Novo in my hands to play with along with the manual I cannot tell for sure...but I will state that quite a few people complained about how difficult it was to understand the Vyper and Vyper Air manuals and in reality they are not difficult to read/follow it just takes some time and effort to learn the technical features of those computers....people tend to lean towards being lazy....perhaps the new models from Suunto have taken that into consideration, or perhaps they screwed up in preparing the new manuals.

-Z

 

[DuboisP]

or perhaps they screwed up in preparing the new manuals.

that's possible
for a Vyper air, I found information in the english user guide, but this information was missing from the french one

 

[Zef]

Not sure if this is the same manual you are looking at but the French Vyper Air manual at the link below seems to be consistent with the English one I have...I am fluent in french and english:

http://ns.suunto.com/Manuals/Vyper_Air/Userguides/Suunto_Vyper_Air_UserGuide_FR.pdf


My concern was that the manuals for the new Novo Models did not show display diagrams consistent with what is the Vyper Air manual(s) so my thoughts are they changed how the computer displays info.

-Zef

 

[Freewillow]

can one explain what the following terms are?

• Decompression floor
• Ceiling range
• Decompression range

For me a computor shoud give me, when in DECO mode, the depth/time of the deepest deco stop and the TTS ( time to surface). What are the other data that you would need? I am lost.

 

[Zef]

Decompression range is the range of depth that allows/is ideal for decompression/off-gassing and can be different between computer manufacturers due to the decompression model they use.

Decompression floor - is the deepest depth that is ideal for decompression to begin. Below this depth there is still considerable nitrogen loading of all tissue compartments so that a decompression stop below the Decompression floor would be ineffective and would increase the diver's decompression obligation (they would have to make more and/or longer decompression stops as they head towards the surface).

Ceiling range- is the range of depth that is recommended based on the decompression model being used that one should stay below to allow for the nitrogen to diffuse back into the blood stream and off-gas. Ascending above the minimum ceiling when there is a decompression obligation puts the diver at significant risk of DCS. Staying within the "Ceiling range" minimizes further nitrogen loading and potentially maximizes safe off-gassing.

Or, from the Suunto Vyper Air Manual:

Ceiling - On a decompression stop dive, the shallowest depth to which a diver may
ascend based on computed nitrogen load.

Decompression range - On a decompression stop dive, the depth range between the floor and
the ceiling within which a diver must stop for some time during ascent.

Floor - The deepest depth during a decompression stop dive at which decompression
takes place.



The Suunto computers provide the information you mention. What else would one need? I am not sure...I have yet to surpass my no-deco limits in 21 years of diving.....I imagine tech divers have specific requirements they look for in a computer. For me and the type of diving I do, the info the Suunto computers provide (and most other recreational dive computers available on the market) suffices/surpasses my needs/requirements.

Hope that helps.

-Zef

 

[Freewillow]

Thank you Zef.

Here in Europe, a lot of "light" deco dives are done regularly by thos that do not consider themeself tek divers. . So I am doing quite often one deco dive a day, rarelly more.

My maximum TTS is 15 minutes. This means quite often a max deco time of 10 minutes.

The only info you really need for these is the TTS and the depth at which your first deco stop is needed so that you can plan the quantity of gas that you will need in order to fulfil your deco obligation + the deco obligation of your dive buddy in case of OOA for one of the 2 divers.

This requires just cautious calculation. This is not really more dangerous than dives within the NDL, if you are properly trained. Just the idea that you have a "theoretical" ceiling makes it a bit more stressful.