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We stay in Rescue mode for 2 hours. We also have a have a tow respond with us IF a vehicle in involved. There is nothing wrong with hooking up and moving it if you needed to gain access.

As far as Laminated Glass goes I’ve toyed with a couple of air rams but not sure on them yet. It just boils down to people having a lesser chance of survival in a fire or submersion to protect some personal property.

When you have time go to car lots and start making a list of the vehicles you find with the tougher glass. The glass will be etched in a corner as to what it is.
 
I believe that you will find nearly every team works on the premise of the Golden Hour. There have been documented conversions involving drowning victims in cold water up to an hour, particularly with very young individuals. Our team stays in rescue mode for 1 1/2 hours to insure that there is no chance for questioning the efforts (assuming of course that doing so does not create undo risks to the team).

The design of newer vehicles will certainly present new challenges to overcome. Simply the laminated glass will have the potential to delay any potential access to submerged vehicles. I was thinking about this scenario since the posting yesterday and do not know if some sort of battering ram would work underwater. One of the issues of even considering the Glass Master is that you have to have an entry point created for the blade to begin cutting.

For teams who have access ramps with the potential for submerged, occupied vehicles, I believe that an IMMEDIATE call for a tow truck for reported vehicles is a must. It will at least provide the potential for a quick, hook and drag if you cannot gain access to the vehicle. As technology changes, so must we.

the option of a tow truck assist in our county is very limited. The river we have has only two access points. Most situations are going to occur during early or late ice. A lot of fishermen drive their vehicles out onto the lake ice to fish. Even if we could get a tow truck to a the vehicle is still going to be under the ice. As cold as the water is, I think the two hour window would be good for our team. We need to devise a plan to be able to get the victim out of the vehicle. We most likely will not be able to drive a vehicle to the scene for obvious reasons. We will need to drive a snowmobile or a four wheeler and pull all of our gear. This is no problem as the team already has 10+ ice dives in this year using this method. In rescue situation we would most likely go through the hole that the vehicle created. We now need a plan to get the victim out of the vehicle. The vehicle will most likely be upside down, potentially submerged in 3 to 4 feet of silt, blocking access to windows and doors. My tentative plan, and I am definitely open to suggestions, would be to hook a lift bag to the non-engine side of the vehicle. Fill the lift bag up from my aluminum 80 stage bottle to pivot the vehicle enough to gain access. I realize now I am going to be in a limited to zero visibility situation. If the doors are locked, I now need a way to get in.

I would love to be able to practice this. I have approached numerous government agencies about submerging a vehicle for training. The list of hoops that I needed to jump through I would not be able to accomplish, even if I was working at this full-time.
 
Thinking lift bag hook up and all the other preparations to get a victim out is going to go into Recovery mode real fast. Remember the Golden 2 Hours is from the time of submersion and into the hands of GOOD life support (Paramedics and/or hospital) not just the EMT’s.

A lift bag needs to be hooked up securely and properly to keep from losing control during the inflation. Chances of that happening during a rescue operation are slim but it’s easy during a recovery. If to big a bag is used things can get out of control and real wild real fast. To small and nothing happens but lost time.

In the past we have used 3 divers to actually roll a vehicle over to get at the victim. Three of us can roll a 3500# rig 180 degrees and put it back on the wheels. It’s not the safest way and I wouldn’t do it in recovery mode when time isn’t an issue.

Now look at this realistically. How are your team members notified? How do they respond, pov’s or emergency vehicles? What distances are they covering over what conditions? Assembly and set up time for your members and distance to the scene? How long does it take to get from the staging area to the scene? How long to get into the water? Depth, vis and conditions? Now add getting the victim GENTLY out of the vehicle, up to the surface, GENTLY up onto a transport device and GENTLY transport to medical help. Even at 2 hours this is going to be tough even under the best of conditions.
 
We just did something like this yesterday on the white board at dive training. It’s not that far off from reality for us. We have some closer and some nuch further away.

Good weather Ideal scenario
Time is 00:00 subject submerges with plenty of good witnesses.
---------00:02 people realize there is a problem and call 911
---------00:05 WC is notified and advises to page out Dive Team
---------00:08 Team paged
---------00:10 First divers check into service
---------00:30 First divers arrive on scene which was 20 miles away, start dressing while interviewing witnesses.
---------00:33 First diver hits the water and submerges using information from witnesses.
---------00:40 Diver locates victim
---------00:42 Diver hands off the victim to medical.

Now let’s throw a wrench into it Snow and icy roads
Let’s start at --00:10 First divers check into service.
---------------00:40 First divers arrive on scene which was 20 miles away.
---------------00:45 First diver hits the water.
---------------00:52 Diver locates victim.
---------------00:54 Diver hands off victim.

In these scenario’s we are responding in emergency vehicles running Code-3 with our gear already set up and ready to go 24-7. On 90% or better of the calls we arrive long before the fire units as those trucks can’t run like a patrol car. Even at that you can see just how fast that golden hour is eaten up.

Now throw in getting and launching a boat, snowmobile, ATV Gator or what ever, loading it and responding to the scene.

Again I’m going to caution teams to be careful using the word RESCUE to describe your team if you aren’t tied tightly to emergency service and able to run code to a call in emergency vehicles. There are plenty of ambulance chasing lawyers out there looking for a cash cow and not having truth in advertising could cost you plenty.

Even emergency services are at risk. Let’s say a Fire Department has as it’s one and only body of water, a small mountain lake that is 30 miles away. Access is only by an old poorly maintained logging road. The very fastest they can get there is over an hour. Now ask yourself are they a Dive Rescue Team or a Recovery Team?
 
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Thank you Gary, your posts have been very helpful. If you don't mind I would like to use them at our next team meeting. When we will be coordinating our efforts with the other safety and rescue personnel. We are a recovery team. I would just like to do as much as possible to be able to recover the victim with a chance of survival. I know that if we do not have a plan in place and are not on board with the other personnel, that slim chance is going to change to nil. I do not want our lack of preparation or training to affect the outcome.

I am very familiar with using lift bags and rigging. In my day job I install signs using a crane. The lift I would be proposing, is merely to get the vehicle out of the silt enough to gain access, using the heavy portion of the vehicle as a pivot point. If I am able to open the doors, I can now gain access. If not I still need an effective way to get in the vehicle.

How do we go about placing a vehicle in a public body of water to train on?
 
You’re more than welcome to use whatever you want. It may be better if you did a more realistic one for your area and conditions. Some of our calls are almost an hour even driving code in good weather. Kind of screws up a victims chances.

The public needs to start taking some responsibility for their own safety. People that venture out on the hard water need to be prepared to go through it. Like leave your windows down, wear a PFD, dress properly and so on. But it’s that attitude that it isn’t going to happen to me that gets everyone into trouble and makes us risk our donkeys.

Be careful with lift bags in deep mud and silt. It may take a huge amount of force to get the object to break the suction and when it does it could be a wild dangerous thing.

As far as a training vehicle goes get someone to donate one headed for the scrap heap. Strip everything out just keeping the body and interior. Some old mobile home axles and wheels will get it rolling. Who cares if it steers. If it doesn’t have any fluids in it getting permission is much easier. Check with All your local agencies and make sure they don’t object. We forgot about the Department of Lands one time and they had a fit that they hadn’t approved it. When you get it done trailer it to the scene and launch the thing. It’s as good a training for a tow company as it is for your team.
 
We are planning on using a timeline for our area. I wanted to use yours as a base to open the discussion.

I have had some experience in dealing with suction as well. We found a sunken runabout and used it for some lift bagging experience. We were using surface supplied air. When it finally broke free it breached the surface like a nuclear class submarine!

I realize the odds when it comes to a rescue. I'm just looking for some scenarios we can train on to improve them a little bit.
 
Good attitude. If you want to read or get the video of a good what not to do air bag recovery look up the USS Squalis. I know there was a History or Discovery Channel showing of it and there should be a rental store that has it. It’s about the one and only successful submarine crew rescue and recovery of the sub.

When I first started diving in the Navy my division Chief was one of the rookie divers there in 1939 but didn’t get to dive. So many innovations started and/or were proven to work there but they got a real good lessen on what not to do and how to do it the right way. He told us rookie divers the stories but I didn’t come to appreciate them until many years later after his death.
 
Gary,

That is exactly the type of scenarios, situations, and time lines we strive to meet as well. I am going to hand off that post to our team training leader as an aid in our ice training on this sat. It really shows that a good rescue attempt can be made if everything falls right.

I really appreciate when you guys pass of such good info.

thanks to all of you, it really has helped me to help get our team into a much more efficient mode.
 
Kershaw make a Knife for fire with a Diamond Punch on the Handle I used it at Deeper Depths it is A great tool No springs Just Smash the Glass little effort, But as D Said Some Glass q little Harder than others.
 

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