• Welcome to ScubaBoard

  1. Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

    Benefits of registering include

    • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
    • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
    • You can make this box go away

    Joining is quick and easy. Login or Register now by clicking on the button

Wet Rocks, Wet Schmocks! Class report UTD Cave 1 & 2

Discussion in 'Technical Diving' started by leabre, Nov 6, 2011.

  1. ucfdiver

    ucfdiver DIR Practitioner

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Orlando, FL
    3,338
    501
    Fact: Taking C1+C2 together has been called zero to hero for years now.

    Even the student realizes it was too far too fast, the most common reason for deaths in caves today. Personally, I don't agree with him it's not the fault of the instructor, anyone who's done much cave diving knows cavern+intro, wait 35-75 dives, then proceed with training is the best route-- that's well accepted.
     
  2. Jasonmh

    Jasonmh ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: New Mexico
    1,403
    5
    Just to clarify, no one actually went out of air during the course. I would like to add some more about the course for those that are interested but will have to wait until I get back home to my computer.
    I started getting interested in cave diving about six years ago. In the last six years I did fundamentals, cavern, dove in caverns in both Florida and Mexico, a few hundred more dives, tech1, tech2, and overhead protocols, before signing up for the cave diver course. I would call that zero to cave diver the slow way. There were no divers in our class looking for a shortcut. It kind of reminds me of the joke about drivers, which goes something like "did you ever notice how you think that everyone driving slower than you is an idiot and everyone driving faster than you is a crazy maniac?" There are some people who will think that anyone getting a cert that requires fewer dives than they had to do is producing suicidal idiots, and any class requiring more dives than they had to do is overkill.
    For me the UTD cave diver class was just the right class at just the right time. The standards are high, and I don't think I would have passed it if I hadn't had the training that I did going into it.
     
    leabre and amascuba like this.
  3. amascuba

    amascuba Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Austin, TX
    2,246
    36
    I'm in the same boat as Jason. We've been dive buddies with the same end goal for about five years. For me this class was about the right sized chunk. At this point, I believe that Jason and I know our limits as a team and we are aware of the unlimited navigational choices that our permit affords us. We however, have set limits on ourselves while build up experience in the environment. Like Jason, I'll be writing more when I return home. Writing this on an iPhone is a little tedious. :)
     
  4. leabre

    leabre Divemaster

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Orange County, CA
    565
    71
    What I realize and wrote is that *I* needed to slow down; I did not make any comment regarding whether the class structure needs to slow down. Please do not misquote me. believe in the class structure that for some people its the right training path if they choose to combine the courses together.
     
  5. leabre

    leabre Divemaster

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Orange County, CA
    565
    71
    I did breathe down my left tank but after opening the isolater had plenty of gas remaining.
     
  6. leabre

    leabre Divemaster

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Orange County, CA
    565
    71
    .......
     
  7. LiteHedded

    LiteHedded Contributor

    4,075
    922
    that's my point exactly...

    sure, refer to the first post in this thread.
     
  8. Unified Team Diving

    Unified Team Diving Contributor

    # of Dives:
    Location: San Diego, CA
    88
    34
    Guys

    I thought I would clarify some things here. "Zero to Hero" has always been suggested as someone who has no experience with this style or type of diving (cave) and goes to cave country on Monday and by that Sunday (7 days straight) are full cave certified. That is not, and has never been, UTD's philosophy. So let's not twist and weave the meaning of zero to hero and/or the UTD programs around to seem negative. We already know the two of you (Litehedded and UCFdiver) are WKKP divers and supporters and therefore have a bone to pick with UTD, and you will do and find what ever you can to twist words and bash anyone who reports on a UTD class or supports UTD. Let's rather discuss this factually and help others learn from Shawn's experience, which is what the intent of the Class Report was about. Not that he would receive the standard bashing dished out by the same two individuals.

    In our standards and procedures you will notice that in order to complete a full cave certification(Cave Diver - part 1 & 2), one may take a minimum of 12 days of training with intervals of experience between each step (Essentials, OHP, Cave 1, Cave 2.) Those intervals are recommended at 25 dives. However, some students may need more and some less. No one can and should be restricted to an exact amount as divers vary and this is not a set of check boxes but rather requires an individual approach to each student's training and learning path. Let's look at Shawn's training path, he started his cave path by taking a essentials of ... class which is a 3 day preparatory class giving him the foundational skills he needs to build the rest of his diving career. These are based and rooted in cave skills. So trim, propulsion, basic 6, s-drill, valve drill and so on. Then Shawn spent 6 + months building these foundational skills and developing his ability to be controlled in the water. He then went on to take the 3 day Overhead Protocols Class, which is again a class based on taking the overhead protocols and skills that can be conducted and built outside of an overhead environment and developing and building them in a local watering hole. So line laying/retrieval, Line Following, Black Out work on the line, valve failure, team failures, broken line and so on. Then several months of practice and many training dives later he decided to take his cave 1 and cave 2 together in Mexico. Probably feeling confident with his skills and abilities outside of the cave, Shawn decided to attempt Cave 1 and 2 together. We allow one to combine any two of the 4 - 3 days programs together although we recommend them to be done separately with experience dives in between. So one can do Essential/Over head protocols or Overhead Protocols/Cave 1 or Cave 1/ Cave 2. Although I cannot speak for Shawn, what Shawn learned here is that like many who take UTD classes, you must EARN your certification and just because you paid, does not mean you pass. He went there to achieve his full cave certification and after several days of class found his limitations, coming to that conclusion by himself and with his instructor. He then received a certification that is appropriate for his ability at this time, giving him the ability to go and practice to his level, gain experience as needed and ultimately achieve his goal as a cave diver in the future. Rather than pigeon hole'ing someone and/or telling them they cannot or are not good enough, the training and class showed him his limitation and therefore he has gained at greater respect for that.

    In conclusion, I would say the last thing we (UTD) have is a zero to hero program. In fact quite the opposite. At the same time we do allow (inclusive) divers who can attain and achieve their level of certification, prove it and achieve it without road blocking them, pigeon hole'ing them or having them start all over again from the bottom.

    Andrew
     
    randytay likes this.
  9. LiteHedded

    LiteHedded Contributor

    4,075
    922
    who I dive with on the weekends has nothing to do with the issues I have with this class dude. and I didn't bash the guy. i'm glad he learned a lot and had fun.

    letting the guy run out of gas and cramming cave 1 and 2 into one week don't sit well with me and I would have (originally) expected more from UTD
     
  10. TSandM

    TSandM Missed and loved by many. Rest in Peace ScubaBoard Supporter

    36,349
    13,623
    It's an interesting argument, Andrew. One of the things I really liked about UTD when it started, was that learning was broken up into really digestible chunks, increasing the likelihood of diver success and therefore diver fun.

    Although you can argue that forbidding someone to take a class they can pass neatly is unfair, perhaps it is equally unproductive to allow an option that you recognized above will not often be fruitful? Encouraging students to tackle a bar you can help them over is a positive thing. Encouraging them to throw themselves at a bar they can't clear can have some long-term bad consequences, including having some people give up trying.
     

Share This Page