What do you want or wish you had from your LDS? All good, all bad...

[3arl J0n35]

Timely fills and FULL fills.

The OW price should include everything.
It’s too cold there to wetsuit it so it should Books and drysuit. I DESPISE “lower” advertised costs than what the inevitable total will be, that’s a huge turn off for me.

Agreed. I know a shop that advertises the "Advanced Open Water Course" for like $200. I though WOW! what a great deal! Then you read the little teeny fine print that they hide by printing it about 1 pixel tall "Price doesn't include boat charter and air fills and equipment rental"......So after I figured it all up the "cost to be certified" was actually closer to $400.

If you ask me, that's literally advertising fraud. If I can't walk out of your shop with a C-card in my hand for $200, then you've lied. I get their motive. The other shop in town charges about $325 for the course, but that includes air fills and free gear use and charter boat fees, so they try to make their course seem cheaper than the competition by hiding the details.

I'm not bashing the shop. I understand that they need to charge what they need to charge to pay the staff and pay the rent and make what percent profit they think they ought to have. My beef is, don't lie about it. Just tell me "I can certify you for $400." and be on the level about it.

If you're advertising a scuba certification for $200 but that doesn't include gear rental and dive boat fees and air fills, then that advertised price is a lie. What you're actually selling me for $200 is CLASSROOM TIME, not a dive certification.

 

[Efka76]

When I look at course price I assume that this course price includes everything: course materials, boat chart, rental equipment, instructor fees, certification costs, PADI processing fees. It is really misleading when you have to read text carefully and play with calculator when you see that course does not include some of the above elements.

Also, by reading some of comments I see that people have too bog expectations from LDS... someone expects to find a very big variety of manufacturers and very extensive list of equipment in a shop.... however, such people do not think that such inventory needs very large working capital and it is not feasible from business side. Let's admit but diving is not very popular due to various barriers (certifications) and beliefs (diving is very dangerous and etc.). For example, even when I try to promote diving among my colleagues they say that I am crazy as diving is very DANGEROUS ,

 

[Kharon]

... people have too big expectations from LDS... someone expects to find a very big variety of manufacturers and very extensive list of equipment in a shop....

This is very unreasonable. Only major players (like LeisurePro) can do this and I bet even they have some sizes/models that sit on their shelves and they have to eat the cost. A LDS just can't afford to do this.

On the other hand, if the shop can't order what I want at reasonably close to what I can order it for and get it reasonably soon, It's not reasonable for them to be pi$$ed if I order online.

Another buying consideratiopn is buying used. I've gotten many things from ScubaBoard members or Craigs List for reduced prices that were nearly new. A LDS probably doesn't have the space and can't afford to buy used stuff from their clients on speculation. Again they can't expect me to pay full price just to support them.

The LDS is a tough row to hoe.

 

[drbill]

Since most of the gear I prefer to dive isn't made any more, I don't need an LDS with gear. I've done all the certs I care to. I mainly use our LDS for air fills and small accessory purchases. What I like is their friendliness and the opportunity to talk about diving, critters, etc. Of course I've been diving longer than almost everyone who works at one of our LDSs so I'm often on the giving rather than receiving end and I like sharing what I've learned over the past six decades.

 

[Colliam7]

I have more than enough gear, at least more than I 'need'. But, I am always on the lookout for gear than I don't have, that MAY be an improvement over what I do have. What I value in my LDS is the ability to order items that few / no dive shops would ordinarily stock, and still keep my $$$ 'local'. Admittedly, I have a very good situation. I teach through a LDS that gives me GREAT pricing on gear - and when people ask me how much something cost me, I always say, 'The MSRP is *whatever*, of course with my staff discount it was less.' I really don't want to let people know what I paid, that is between me and the shop. And, the shop's manager is a bit of a 'gear head' so he really has a lot of technical knowledge about products. (I like to think I know A LOT about gear, and this young man is much younger than I - a mere kid - but he really does study gear specifications and data, and I find him to be a terrific resource.) Plus the shop is willing to order anything they can, from any supplier for which they are a dealer. And, I am seldom in a position when I need something very specific TODAY.

So, ordering capability and pricing are a big plus for me with this LDS.

A (logical) downside: it is virtually impossible for a single shop to carry every brand of gear available. Between minimum annual order thresholds, and inventory considerations, and pricing advantages associated with volume, etc. it makes perfect sense for shops to align themselves with a limited number of manufacturers, sometimes only one or two 'majors'. That is just good business. So, I can't and don't expect one shop to carry every brand I like. Fortunately, I am relatively easy to please, across brands. (I do wish my LDS was a Halcyon dealer, but that is another story.)

 

[WantSomeScuba?]

Timely fills and FULL fills.

This may or may not help but I’m not sure if your training is “going rate “ in Alaska
But it sounds expensive $699 course with $99 for drysuit, $300 personal gear and $145 for books?

I would come in for fills but I doubt I’d walk around much with prices like that.

The OW price should include everything.
It’s too cold there to wetsuit it so it should Books and drysuit. I DESPISE “lower” advertised costs than what the inevitable total will be, that’s a huge turn off for me.


For comparison I got all my OW done in Vancouver, with drysuit use for all open water dives and an extra dive for drysuit cert. a year of unlimited free air fills for $575 CAD ~$440 USD
Included rentals for everything and 20% off any gear or anything else we bought for entire course duration.

That's partly a function of where we are, partly a function of a number of people choosing e-learning, already have course materials, one family can share a DVD, the fact we do a TON of referrals, and on and on. For example, some people want an OW cert and could care less about a drysuit. Some people may choose to upgrade from a referral halfway through the class. We also will do makeups and remediations for next to nothing.

However, the biggest reason for the price (which is more or less the going rate around here) is that we have no desire to get into a race to the bottom when it comes to training. Pool time in Alaska is incredibly expensive, and we still do four, two-three hour confined water sessions, and cap our classes at 8 (and usually 6, unless everybody seems like they're going to be comfortable). We also still push classroom sessions over e-learning. Our instructors actually get paid decently, but they're held to a higher standard.

Being from Los Angeles, and my brother still managing a shop down there, the whole "cheaper is better" thing is detrimental to diving in the long run. I'm not saying that's what happened in your case, it's just that people who arent entirely comfortable before they go to OW, when it might be 0 degrees Farenheit outside and the water is 37, will never go diving again up here if they don't have a solid foundation going into it.

Edit: I definitely agree on the "nickel-and-dime" aspect, and would love a suggestion of pitching that differently. We're pretty straight forward about what cost will be, and were not trying to sneak expenses in, but it's hard when everybody has different needs. Some folks have MSF already, and some bought their books in Hawaii and never got around to taking the course. I'd love a better way of pitching that though.

 

[Colliam7]

However, the biggest reason for the price (which is more or less the going rate around here) is that we have no desire to get into a race to the bottom when it comes to training.

Hallelujah, brother! Speak the truth, preacher!

 

[Bierstadt]

It's probably impossible to be a perfect dive shop, but I am happy with a good one. The perfect dive shop carries everything you want in stock at low prices, is as much a diving social club with divers talking and kicking back whenever you drop by, any class you want from instructors that go well beyond the minimum, quick and accurate fills and service, trips and events local and international, etc. But... no one's perfect.

I am inclined to think that a dive shop will do well if it embeds itself into the local diving community, or creates one, supports that community, provides the gear they need at affordable prices and can promptly order odd items, provides fairly priced and responsive fills and service, with helpful, non-pushy customer service and quality training, some sort of pool option, and local and vacation diving. Good luck with your shop.

 

[KentB]

That's partly a function of where we are, partly a function of a number of people choosing e-learning, already have course materials, one family can share a DVD, the fact we do a TON of referrals, and on and on. For example, some people want an OW cert and could care less about a drysuit. Some people may choose to upgrade from a referral halfway through the class. We also will do makeups and remediations for next to nothing.

However, the biggest reason for the price (which is more or less the going rate around here) is that we have no desire to get into a race to the bottom when it comes to training. Pool time in Alaska is incredibly expensive, and we still do four, two-three hour confined water sessions, and cap our classes at 8 (and usually 6, unless everybody seems like they're going to be comfortable). We also still push classroom sessions over e-learning. Our instructors actually get paid decently, but they're held to a higher standard.

Being from Los Angeles, and my brother still managing a shop down there, the whole "cheaper is better" thing is detrimental to diving in the long run. I'm not saying that's what happened in your case, it's just that people who arent entirely comfortable before they go to OW, when it might be 0 degrees Farenheit outside and the water is 37, will never go diving again up here if they don't have a solid foundation going into it.

Edit: I definitely agree on the "nickel-and-dime" aspect, and would love a suggestion of pitching that differently. We're pretty straight forward about what cost will be, and were not trying to sneak expenses in, but it's hard when everybody has different needs. Some folks have MSF already, and some bought their books in Hawaii and never got around to taking the course. I'd love a better way of pitching that though.

I wasn't necessarily criticizing your price- I can imagine everything is Alaska is even more than Canada, I was mainly commenting on the $699 is classroom theory only.
I wasn't implying you need to be the cheapest either, I own an HVAC company and Im FAR from the cheapest bidder I cater to a high end custom home contractor/homeowner market I do very very few spec homes and rental properties as Im substantially more expensive so I totally understand the cheaper isnt better, but you need to realize the market your pitching the sale to. I realize the OW certs are the equilivant of spec homes in the sense that most people just want a card and go from there and lots are just trying it out to see if they like it. and Id venture to say most people dont even continue diving who trained in cold water so a cheaper is better might work, advanced courses and tec----- totally different and people tend to go for quality over cost as they have decided to carry on with diving.

maybe to make the cost sound better offer free fills for a 6 months or a year, 2 Max per day so they dont fill other peoples tanks and realistically most new divers wont buy their own tanks and the ones that do probably wont buy them right away and the few who do..........the rest of the students pay for it anyways.

It was merely an initial observation and it sounded expensive before the "fine print" ....... myself Id say OW cert is $XXX see in store details for discounts ect.

Ive been to Alaska exactly once for 2 days 15 years ago so more than likely Ill never be a potential customer due to location. I didnt mean anything by it just my opinion, which isnt worth much as the dive shops are 45 min away here so its hard for me to get there regularly for fills with my dive hours so I bought my own compressor for ease of fills at my convenience, so Im a minimal customer at the best of times.

 

[WantSomeScuba?]

maybe to make the cost sound better offer free fills for a 6 months or a year, 2 Max per day so they dont fill other peoples tanks and realistically most new divers wont buy their own tanks and the ones that do probably wont buy them right away and the few who do..........the rest of the students pay for it anyways.

It was merely an initial observation and it sounded expensive before the "fine print" ....... myself Id say OW cert is $XXX see in store details for discounts ect.

The $699 is class, pool, and OW, but I totally get what you're saying, and thank you for the feedback. I like the idea of offering free fills, which got me thinking about free pool time for "x" amount of days, and now I'm trying to figure out more I could do down that road (i.e. a discounted, non-diving speciality for recent students, etc.). Thanks for the input!