What does "Experience" really mean?

[Eric Sedletzky]

Two people:

Person A and person B do open water together and get certified.

Diver A decides he likes the whole class thing and takes all the classes he can one after another. He get's into DM program and get's all required 60 dives by never leaving class environment including internship. He becomes an instructor and teaches for the shop he originally got certified through. All gear he uses is what the dive shop mandes their instructors use and he knows no different from day one. After 5 years instructor racks up 600 dives but 90% of them are dives in 20 feet of water certifying students. The other 10% are with classes doing advanced and rescue courses. The instructor has never done an independant dive on his own with a buddy.

Diver B right away joined a dive club and 4 weeks later took advanced because a new friend was taking it and they figured it would be fun. Besides they needed the cert to get on the local charter boats. Diver B never does another class related dive. Half of his dives are over 100 feet. He's been on live aboards, has gotten cought in currents and had to fight to get back to the boat, he has done many challenging shore dives, and has tried all types of new and different gear. Over the same 5 years diver B only has 200 dives.

Which diver has more experience?

I'll add another twist.

You decide to go on a day charter boat to an advanced dive spot with depths down to 120 feet and possible currents and the spot is offshore so wind and swells can come up making it into a double diamond dive. Your dive buddy cancels in the last minute but you decide to go on the trip anyway. When you get on the boat the DM tells you no solo diving at this spot.
Diver A and Diver B just happen to be on this same trip and neither has a buddy.
Diver A finally decides to break out of the dive shop and do a dive on his own, and Diver B has been on this boat 10 times and has dove this spot 5 times.

They tell you to buddy with either diver A or B, take your choice. Diver A tells you he has 600 dives, he's an instructor, and has been diving for 5 years. Diver B tells you he is only advanced open water certified, he has 200 dives and has been diving for 5 years.

Who do you dive with?

 

[Sas]

I'll add another twist.

You decide to go on a day charter boat to an advanced dive spot with depths down to 120 feet and possible currents and the spot is offshore so wind and swells can come up making it into a double diamond dive. Your dive buddy cancels in the last minute but you decide to go on the trip anyway. When you get on the boat the DM tells you no solo diving at this spot.
Diver A and Diver B just happen to be on this same trip and neither has a buddy.
Diver A finally decides to break out of the dive shop and do a dive on his own, and Diver B has been on this boat 10 times and has dove this spot 5 times.

They tell you to buddy with either diver A or B, take your choice. Diver A tells you he has 600 dives, he's an instructor, and has been diving for 5 years. Diver B tells you he is only advanced open water certified, he has 200 dives and has been diving for 5 years.

Who do you dive with?

Whichever one had the same goals as me for the dive and also which one I felt would match my diving style the most. Their attitudes would play a big part too.

The information you have provided about their experience would not influence which one I would dive with at all.

 

[Darnold9999]

Why would I care other than to decide which one I am more likely to have to rescue?

Focus inward when deciding which dive to do - can "I" do the dive. Then and only then look to the question "can my buddy do the dive?", followed by "should we do the dive together?".

"Experience" is only one criteria for deciding if someone has a level of skills. An idiot with 1,000 dives is still an idiot.

 

[Katamuki]

I'll add another twist.

You decide to go on a day charter boat to an advanced dive spot with depths down to 120 feet and possible currents and the spot is offshore so wind and swells can come up making it into a double diamond dive. Your dive buddy cancels in the last minute but you decide to go on the trip anyway. When you get on the boat the DM tells you no solo diving at this spot.
Diver A and Diver B just happen to be on this same trip and neither has a buddy.
Diver A finally decides to break out of the dive shop and do a dive on his own, and Diver B has been on this boat 10 times and has dove this spot 5 times.

They tell you to buddy with either diver A or B, take your choice. Diver A tells you he has 600 dives, he's an instructor, and has been diving for 5 years. Diver B tells you he is only advanced open water certified, he has 200 dives and has been diving for 5 years.

Who do you dive with?

I'll bite. I would dive with diver B. I see way way too many instructors who do the PADI thing and count a 20ft for 20min as a dive and log it that way. When you wrote that dive A is "breaking" from his dive shop I have this visceral reaction that its that kind of diver. Maybe wrong but its what I have a gut reaction to. On the other hand diver B has been on this very boat and to this very dive several times and chances are he is pretty comfortable and competent on this particular dive.

 

[Rick Inman]

I once watched a young guy on his 5th lifetime dive, using a BP/W and long hose for the first time (and my HID light) rescue an older, "more experienced" diver who went OOA and in a full panic made a run for the surface with the kid in tow.

The kid managed to get the "experienced" guy gas from his long hose, got control of the guys panic on the surface and then (without any training) rescue swam the guy to shore.

Oh, BTW. The young guy had just returned from 18 months of ground action in Iraq. He managed the situation because of a different kind of "experience" that the older diver didn't have.

Once back on shore I asked the kid, "Weren't you scared when the guy took your reg and started dragging you to the surface?"

"Scared to death, " he told me. "But I've kinda' gotten used to that."

Some experience has more value than another when you really need it.

 

[HowardE]

Rick... What about your dive in FL with the "accomplished bad divers"?

Another good friend of mine refers to "accomplished bad divers" - these are people with lots of dives, maybe even technical training. They have the knowledge AND experience, but have only survived many of their dangerous dives, "by the grace of god"? Experience doesn't always equal ability to use that experience wisely? These people walk away, high fiving, and thinking they're great experienced tech divers, but really they may even lack basic buoyancy skills that a diver with 50 dives has already mastered?

Experience - like all things - is relative to the person applying that experience.

 

[Cave Diver]

Why would I care other than to decide which one I am more likely to have to rescue?

Focus inward when deciding which dive to do - can "I" do the dive. Then and only then look to the question "can my buddy do the dive?", followed by "should we do the dive together?".

This reflects my relationship with my primary dive buddy. I'll dive almost anywhere with him. That's not because I need him to make me comfortable, but rather because we're pretty equally matched in skills/training/experience and I'm comfortable that he won't need me to rescue him.

I think alot of times people do dives beyond their skill level because they trust their buddy/divemaster/instructor to "save" them if things go south. Having a more experienced mentor to dive with is one thing. Relying on them for your own safety is another.

 

[geokr]

[hijack]Geokr, are you or have you been an airline transort captain, or is your instructing limited to private pilot sector? [/hijack]

The POINT of this, borne out in the Navy study, is that despite the skill, training and high professional standards ANYONE may have, it still boils down to how you apply the experience you've gained.

ATP S&MEL, CFII

 

[scubadada]

I'll add another twist.

You decide to go on a day charter boat to an advanced dive spot with depths down to 120 feet and possible currents and the spot is offshore so wind and swells can come up making it into a double diamond dive. Your dive buddy cancels in the last minute but you decide to go on the trip anyway. When you get on the boat the DM tells you no solo diving at this spot.
Diver A and Diver B just happen to be on this same trip and neither has a buddy.
Diver A finally decides to break out of the dive shop and do a dive on his own, and Diver B has been on this boat 10 times and has dove this spot 5 times.

They tell you to buddy with either diver A or B, take your choice. Diver A tells you he has 600 dives, he's an instructor, and has been diving for 5 years. Diver B tells you he is only advanced open water certified, he has 200 dives and has been diving for 5 years.

Who do you dive with?

I'd ask a few additional questions and likely decide diver B would be my choice. Unfortunately, that leaves diver A with no buddy, he'll likely be assigned to the threesome. The dive will probably go OK, but you never know. I'd make sure the dive plan, including lost diver, was discussed in detail and understood.

I've had much more trouble when assigned an AOW diver with no or few dives past the 9 required for the certification. They end up diving well beyond their experience and skill. This has happened a number of times diving the deeper wrecks off Key Largo where the cert or applicable recent deep dives are required to make the trip. These dives are a piece of cake in good conditions but can be challenging in brisk current and/or decreased visibility.

Good diving, Craig

 

[Rick Inman]

Rick... What about your dive in FL with the "accomplished bad divers"?

Another good friend of mine refers to "accomplished bad divers" - these are people with lots of dives, maybe even technical training. They have the knowledge AND experience, but have only survived many of their dangerous dives, "by the grace of god"? Experience doesn't always equal ability to use that experience wisely? These people walk away, high fiving, and thinking they're great experienced tech divers, but really they may even lack basic buoyancy skills that a diver with 50 dives has already mastered?

Experience - like all things - is relative to the person applying that experience.

Right. There are divers out there with lots of experience doing things less than optimal, but getting through a lot of dives without anything going wrong. If a diver has 500 dives, but hasn't done an OOA drill since they did it on their knees during their PADI Open Water, I'm not sure how valuable that experience will be where their buddy runs OOG and rips the reg from their mouth.