What does Padi Deep water certification teach that AOW does not?

[tursiops]

I believe he meant four dives with one of each of the four total dives to address each point?

That makes more sense. Except for his emphasis on SMB, that's not far off of the course. SMB is easily added if the instructor and student so desire....shouldn't take a whole dive to do....the goal is not to achieve perfection, but to learn how to do it. You keep getting better at it the rest of your diving career.

 

[Efka76]

@ Captain Sindbad - sorry to disappoint you however, I was taught these skills during TDI AN/P courses but not during PADI Deep specialty. PADI Specialties are organized in such way that that they teach you a very small skill during each specialty. For example, now there is a separate DSMB deployment specialty. Out of 7 PADI specialties, only Search and recover specialty was really interesting and gave some good skills.

 

[Jay]

You'll find many SB threads on the class, such as PADI Deep Diver specialty course worthwhile?, which may even have some accurate information.

Thanks. That thread you lined does have some nice info in it. I had the same question as the OP but was looking into the deep course as part of a requirement for a wreck I want to dive. Feeling slightly annoyed at the PADI $ machine*, I read several course blurbs, which came across mostly containing what typically would be covered in OW or AOW. When investigating the course I'll definitely be asking about specifics as per both threads. Here's a couple of quotes from the other thread. Short familiar story; it's all dependent on the instructor.

[*i learnt a lot in OW and RD, nothing in AOW, minimal in Nx - guess that's for another thread if at all]

I took the PADI deep course a few years ago from what I consider to be a very good PADI instructor. He taught the course to standards and a little above but in all honesty looking back now from my own view as an instructor and someone who has taken a bit of tech training the course was not thorough enough.

There was a great deal of info lacking in it. Not enough time is spent on equipment configuration and selection of the gear and why. Emergency deco procedures are IMO glossed over and the hazards of going into deco and the hazards of deep diving itself not emphasized enough. Actual deep diving should promote some anxiety and in some cases enough that that certain divers will just reconsider the whole idea and not do it. Emergency deco procedures should be part of any deep dive and planned for as back up. The problem is that the instructor may not have a good idea of just what those procedures and tables are. When choosing a deep instructor ask them what tables they follow for an emergency deco event. If they say the RDP guidelines - run like hell and find someone else. I use either v- planner, the US Navy Deco schedule, or the emergency deco tables we teach in the SEI Open Water class. Try to find an instructor that has a track record of deep diving ; preferably technical deep dives. Their idea of planning and actually executing those dives usually carries over into the ones they do recreationally.

I also do not think that 4 dives is enough - I'd like to see 6 over three days min- and the min depth for those dives at 80 feet. With at least three of them in excess of 100. 3 dives to 70 -90 feet and one to 110 is not enough experience. Also the required skills on those dives are a joke. there are no real task loading skills other than a timed task at depth - mine was a combination lock. I have students run a line and reel at 90-100 feet in my AOW deep dive, perform air shares, and communication exercises at that depth. In a deep class they would also perform buddy breathing, gear removal and replacement, switching to a stage bottle as a planned and as an emergency exercise, and a few other things I would come up with based on their needs and reasons for diving deep. I might have them recover a concrete block with a lift bag and bring it from 90 to the surface under control.

In the course they also talk about optional equipment for deep dives and what they consider optional I do not. Every item is essential including a proper redundant air supply, lights, reels, emergency O2, and back up gauges. I also consider a lift bag and /or SMB with reel or spool to be required gear. And deploying that bag from a depth of 80-100 feet should also be an exercise in the course.

There also needs to be enough face to face time in the classroom with the instructor and while self study is valuable it should supplement the classroom not replace it.

I'd also advise you to not rule out a quarry for training. Not all are the same. Gilboa with it's 40 degree bottom temps will be far more challenging than a warm water dive to the same depth and test you more. You may not have the currents but it will not be an easy walk in the park.

Management of narcosis is possible and there are a number or ways to do it. I have my own method that for reasons of liability I will not detail here in fear that someone may try it and get hurt by misinterpreting what I use and then sue me or worse their survivors sue me. I will only say that it involves task loading myself in a set manner during the dive to stay alert and aware.

The best way to manage it if you are going to do deep dives is to eliminate it. I like Helium for that.

In short do not take lightly what you experienced and don't take a deep course just for the card. Find a course and an instructor that will give you an education and don't limit yourself to any agency. Interview the instructor and the shop if going thru one like you would if you were hiring an employee to train your most loved family members. I have three chapters in my book dealing with interviewing an instructor, interviewing a shop, and deciding what training is best for you and when.

I have been told it has saved some readers money, time, and helped them get better training by knowing what questions to ask.

Tech courses represet a considerably large commitment in terms of money and motivation. Learning decompression procedures and accelerated decompression is complete overkill for a diver who wishes to remain within no-decompression limits to a maximum depth of 40m.

A deep diver course, taken with a well motivated and knowledgeable instructor, will provide tools, techniques and knowledge that help mitigate risk within the deeper recreational diving ranges. The primary thing missing from that course syllabus is gas management. However, a properly educated and experienced instructor should be able to supplement this into the course to ensure completeness (if they cannot, they shouldn't be teaching deep diving).

Sadly, it is true that not every scuba instructor should be teaching deep diving. The skill, experience and knowledge requirements for becoming a specialist deep diving instructor with PADI, and many other agencies, are virtually non-existent.

One option for ensuring that your instructor is suitably knowledgeable is to search for a technical diving instructor (or, at least, an instructor that is technical diving qualified). Otherwise, you will need to confirm the instructor's suitability and knowledge by interview.

To conduct deep diving, it is vital that core/foundation scuba skills are effective and ingrained. Buoyancy, weighting, propulsion, equipment familiarity, buddy procedures, navigation, situational awareness (depth, time, NDL and buddy awareness) and other safe diving practises must all be at a high standard.

Critical factors that need to be expanded for deep diving are:

1) Inert-gas narcosis awareness and management
2) Precision dive planning
3) Gas management
4) DCI awareness and first aid
5) Equipment configuration and appropriate redundancy
6) Team/Buddy Procedures
7) Situational awareness
8) Advanced buoyancy skills
9) DSMB deployment
10) Use of appropriate lighting
11) Emergency decompression procedures
12) Self-sufficiency and self-rescue

 

[Erik Forsberg]

Just took my Deep a few months ago as a requirement for Tec Deep.

My expectation was that it would mostly just be a hurdle that needed to be jumped to get to Tec 40, but I actually got some good stuff out of it.

* Handling of a stage bottle.
* The difference of diving at 25m and 40m. The amount of light down there was way less.
* Calculating air consumption, turnaround points and reasonable reserve supply for real and not just in theory.
* Real dive planning and what it should include.

Not sure which of these were a part of the ciricculum and which were added extra, but it was absolutely worth it I think.

 

[Doby45]

For example, now there is a separate DSMB deployment specialty.

Good Lord, next there will be a BCD donning specialty, shortly followed by the BCD ditching specialty..

 

[yle]

As with all specialty courses, the Deep Diver course provides training under the guidance of an experienced instructor. The advantage is that the instructor can share their experience and knowledge with the student to allow the student to build a stronger foundation for their further diving experience. Those that claim everything in the Deep Diver course can be figured out without the course are absolutely correct... but as with all educational endeavors, taking the "figure it out on your own" route will usually take much longer and could leave gaps in knowledge that would have been filled by an instructor.

As for specific requirements of the DD course... I was going to list the "performance requirements" (I pulled them from the PADI instructor manual for the course), but the list was a bit too long. The highlights of the performance requirements:

Four dives
Renewed emphasis on monitoring ascent rate and safety stops
Renewed emphasis on navigation techniques
Gas management planning
Use of an emergency gas supply (hang tank, pony bottle, etc)

It's unfortunate that some people view continuing ed as just a "money grab". Most instructors are experienced divers that have opted to make themselves available to share their knowledge with inexperienced divers. That knowledge, and the supervised training that comes with most con ed, has value to new divers, as it allows them to advance their diving experience safely (instead of by trial & error.) And safer new divers are a benefit to the diving community in general.

 

[Dzydvl33]

Ok. With all that has been said on here I have to ask.
Is there an organization that has better curriculum than the others? And if so which one?
For AOW, would it be better to go through SSI or NAUI, ect?
Same for Deep.
I guess what I'm asking is. Is there some way to compare the course content of each organization for equivalent level of certs and pick the most comprehensive course for each cert?

 

[Lorenzoid]

I would say that the most useful thing I got out of the PADI Deep course was that nebulous thing we refer to as "experience." A few progressively deeper dives under the guidance of an instructor. Other than that, I felt nothing I was taught would truly prepare me to safely and confidently dive to the rec limit of 130 feet. No concrete "tools" that I was taught to use. Letting me carry and breathe from a pony on the last dive was not teaching me anything practical. It was more like a list of things to consider--things to be wary of. In that sense, and similar to PADI Wreck, on one hand the message seemed to be that I could do the dive provided I took X, Y, and Z into account (in exactly what way was not spelled out), while on the other hand the message seemed to be that there are good reasons why maybe I shouldn't do the dive. IF you decide to take such a risky dive, then "consider this." IF you decide to take such a risky dive, then "take this into account." I felt I received ambiguous, totally mixed messages. If anything, after taking the Deep course, I was LESS likely to do such dives--and that may have been an intended outcome. Of course, as they say, "it's the instructor, not the agency." A lot of what the student gets out of a course depends on the individual instructor, and I'm sure that some people have gotten more out of their Deep course than I did.

The rec depth limit is, almost by definition, the border that defines what is tech diving. Some would say that if you want to dive to 130 feet safely and with enough bottom time to actually see something, err on the side of caution and do it as a proper tech dive. GUE has a nominally "recreational" course called Rec 3 that is intended to teach how to dive this depth safely. I haven't taken Rec 3, but I would bet that it at least achieves this goal. Whether tools such as the use of helium are overkill for a mere 130 feet could be debated, but I would bet that the diver receives all the tools he could need to do those dives safely and confidently, and the instructor wouldn't sign off on the cert if the instructor doubted the diver's ability.

 

[divinh]

I've only taken OW and AOW and the Deep Dive in AOW was to 30m. What I got out of diving courses, in general, is that they're introduction to new ideas and skills. In no way did I feel comfortable enough after the courses to say I mastered any of it. It feels like that's what some people are asking for, "what certification or organization can I go through to say I mastered something". To me, it's get the introduction, then practice, practice, practice...

When I was in Okinawa, I signed up for the U.S.S. Emmons dive. I had no idea how deep it was, nor did I have a dive computer at the time. (This was about seven or eight years ago.) It was a total "trust me" dive. I was asked before the dive if I could follow instructions and how good I was on air, besides the normal background questions. I had done a bunch of dives just prior to getting to Okinawa, so I was in the "diving routine" zone. I was given a BPW, which I had never seen before, but it wasn't that hard to understand. On the dive, I followed the instructions... always stay at or above the instructor/guide, equalize, watch air, keep up and signal if there are any problems. We went down to 43m. The thing I noticed was that it was pretty easy to go deep and not notice it, if it weren't for the mooring lines. We didn't spend that much time down there and we did two stops on the way back up, hanging onto the mooring line. After a two hour surface interval, we did it again. I didn't understand all the things we did, like the two stops, but it gave me a starting point to ask more questions.

 

[TMHeimer]

Another plus to doing the Deep course may be my thought that the deeper you are the more trouble you can get into. Same as comparing a 60' dive to a 30' one. I know I can easily CESA from 30, not sure about 60. Good idea to be with an instructor when venturing down there the first few times.