What if...? Dive Planning & Trust Me Dives

[Cave Diver]

The following post is one of a series of threads resulting from a collaboration between [user]Bubbletrubble[/user] and myself.
We have divided the What if...? idea into a series of topics and posted the main thread as a sticky here: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...514-what-if-what-do-when-things-go-wrong.html

Please Read The Following Bullet Points Carefully!

• Our intent for this discussion is to get newer divers thinking, not spoon feed them the answers.
• We're going to ask that the more experienced divers don't just jump in with responses to every scenario.
• Instead, we want this to be a two part exercise for newer divers by doing the following:
  • Quote a given scenario and
  • (1) discuss what they would do given the situation
  • (2) talk about how to avoid getting into that situation in the first place.
• Then the more experienced divers can give follow up comments on insights on those answers.

Anyone is encouraged to a post new scenario for discussion, but please follow the instructions above when answering and keep it relevant to the topic.

Dive Planning & Trust Me Dives
* What would you do if you reached your agreed upon turnaround pressure and your buddy or the DM pushed on with the dive (rather than turning around)?
* What would you do if the DM leading your boat dive went into a cave or other overhead environment?
* What would you do if your buddy inexplicably descended deeper (100+ fsw) than the two of you had discussed during pre-dive planning?
* What would you do if your buddy wanted to go diving but you weren't comfortable with the dive conditions (high surf, current, low vis, rough seas, etc.)?
* What would you do if your buddy gave you "the thumb" on the dive but everything seemed like it was OK?

 

[TexasKaren68]

OK, I'll go first...

* What would you do if you reached your agreed upon turnaround pressure and your buddy or the DM pushed on with the dive (rather than turning around)?


I'd probably nag them for a few minutes showing them my gauge and giving them the thumbs up. If they still pressed on then I would probably give them the thumb, followed by the finger, and head up. I mean, I'm not going to die just because someone else is some sort of control freak.

* What would you do if the DM leading your boat dive went into a cave or other overhead environment?

Try to get their attention before they go in and let them know I wasn't going, otherwise I'd probably stick with my buddy outside a cave if that was the only exit and wait for the DM to come back. At this point I'd be scared to death in a cave so no way am I trusting a DM and following him/her. Hopefully this is something that would have been discussed beforehand. If not, I'd never use that Dive Op again. Caves and wrecks should not show up as surprises on a dive.

* What would you do if your buddy inexplicably descended deeper (100+ fsw) than the two of you had discussed during pre-dive planning?

Freak out! If this happened, and I was 40+ feet above him I don't know the answer to this. My buddy shouldn't leave me so either he's breaking the rules or is in some serious trouble. I'm looking forward to hearing some experienced answers to this.

* What would you do if your buddy wanted to go diving but you weren't comfortable with the dive conditions (high surf, current, low vis, rough seas, etc.)?

Probably tick him off by telling him I wasn't going. He can buddy up with another group if possible. I'll be on deck or the beach working on my tan. The exception is if my "buddy" is also my instructor and the class is there to learn about diving in low vis, rough seas, etc. Not something I'd have signed up for though, so a non-issue for me.

* What would you do if your buddy gave you "the thumb" on the dive but everything seemed like it was OK?

Give him the OK sign, like a question, and if I got the thumb in return then we go up and I can find out what the problem is on the surface. Maybe he has to pee.

 

[rubixcube]

* What would you do if you reached your agreed upon turnaround pressure and your buddy or the DM pushed on with the dive (rather than turning around)?
First I would signal them to alert them of this, if the alert is ignored I would attempt again putting more emphasis on turning the dive. If completely ignored I would leave them.
* What would you do if the DM leading your boat dive went into a cave or other overhead environment?
Assuming this was not planned I would not enter the overhead environment if not properly trained for it. I would signal them to say I was not entering and if encouraged to do so against my better judgement would turn the dive.
* What would you do if your buddy inexplicably descended deeper (100+ fsw) than the two of you had discussed during pre-dive planning?
This is easily the most difficult scenario, following them and getting their attention puts me at extreme risk, at the same time allowing them to go is possibly signing their death certificate. I would first try to signal them without following, if unseen or ignored I would be forced to attempt to get help from a DM if available or continue to signal at them until I have to ascend.
* What would you do if your buddy wanted to go diving but you weren't comfortable with the dive conditions (high surf, current, low vis, rough seas, etc.)?
This one is easy, I would not dive.
* What would you do if your buddy gave you "the thumb" on the dive but everything seemed like it was OK?
I would ascend with them, whatever the problem mental, physical, or otherwise if its serious enough for someone to call a dive its serious enough to listen to.

Prevention on these mostly involves keeping good buddies and logically deciding what you do/do not want to do during a dive and not crossing those lines.

 

[MRadke]

The following post is one of a series of threads resulting from a collaboration between [user]Bubbletrubble[/user] and myself.
We have divided the What if...? idea into a series of topics and posted the main thread as a sticky here: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...514-what-if-what-do-when-things-go-wrong.html

Please Read The Following Bullet Points Carefully!

• Our intent for this discussion is to get newer divers thinking, not spoon feed them the answers.
• We're going to ask that the more experienced divers don't just jump in with responses to every scenario.
• Instead, we want this to be a two part exercise for newer divers by doing the following:
  • Quote a given scenario and
  • (1) discuss what they would do given the situation
  • (2) talk about how to avoid getting into that situation in the first place.
• Then the more experienced divers can give follow up comments on insights on those answers.

Anyone is encouraged to a post new scenario for discussion, but please follow the instructions above when answering and keep it relevant to the topic.

Dive Planning & Trust Me Dives
* What would you do if you reached your agreed upon turnaround pressure and your buddy or the DM pushed on with the dive (rather than turning around)?

Depends on the depth and conditions, but if I know that I'm going to run low on gas, I'll thumb the dive

* What would you do if the DM leading your boat dive went into a cave or other overhead environment?

Again, it's situational, if I knew the divemaster well, I'd consider it part of my continuing education. If it were the sorry SOB that dropped a 4 pound weight in my pocket when I was having trouble with my BC, I'd wave it off.

* What would you do if your buddy inexplicably descended deeper (100+ fsw) than the two of you had discussed during pre-dive planning?

First I'd try to get his attention, that failing, and assuming noone else around and that I have enough gas, I'd bounce down and grab him

* What would you do if your buddy wanted to go diving but you weren't comfortable with the dive conditions (high surf, current, low vis, rough seas, etc.)?

I've never had a real problem with the word NO

* What would you do if your buddy gave you "the thumb" on the dive but everything seemed like it was OK?

Well first I make sure that it's not the party thumb, but if the dive's over, it's over.

 

[2 Big 2 Fail]

Dive Planning & Trust Me Dives

* What would you do if you reached your agreed upon turnaround pressure and your buddy or the DM pushed on with the dive (rather than turning around)?

If I've clearly indicated that I've hit the agreed upon air, I'd let them know I was leaving and leave. Why make a plan, if you weren't going to follow it. It's not war where all plans evaporate as soon as the battle starts. We don't have to do this.

* What would you do if the DM leading your boat dive went into a cave or other overhead environment?

I didn't lose a dang thing in that cave and don't much like the places anyway. I would likely find something to amuse myself until they came out. I would make some effort to let them know I wasn't going in, so they don't think I'm lost in there, but if they shouldn't have been leading us in there, I'm not going in to catch up with them to tell them.

* What would you do if your buddy inexplicably descended deeper (100+ fsw) than the two of you had discussed during pre-dive planning?

Make noise. Get attention. Signal that this was deep enough and to look at the gauge. If they persist, again, I'll amuse myself at the agreed upon depth to see if he comes back up. I will not say that I would treat it as a normal lost-sight-of-buddy situation, since he terminated the buddy relationship when he went deeper. If someone is lost, I'll report them lost, but I don't think I'll end the dive to report someone stupid. If I thought they were afflicted and that was causing them to go deeper, I'd make some effort to go deeper and try to turn them, but very briefly, before I made as rapid an ascent as possible and tried to get experienced deep divers after him while it might still be time to do some good.

* What would you do if your buddy wanted to go diving but you weren't comfortable with the dive conditions (high surf, current, low vis, rough seas, etc.)?

No issue here. Sorry, buddy.

* What would you do if your buddy gave you "the thumb" on the dive but everything seemed like it was OK?

Time to go up. We'll talk about it later. Something's not okay. And what the hell - it's just a dive. There will be many others.

 

[Kenny13]

Ok, I'm going to try my hand at these before looking at the other responses. I have to admit, on the surface these appear to be considerably tougher than the missing buddy scenarios due to the fact that "doing the right thing" could intentionally leave both you and your buddy solo.

What would you do if you reached your agreed upon turnaround pressure and your buddy or the DM pushed on with the dive (rather than turning around)?

First of all, in our normal diving once a turnaround and/or ascent pressure are agreed upon, it is agreed that there is no deviation from the plan. That being said, if I were in the situation where a buddy decided to push on with the dive I would have to stop them for some sort of explanation or change to the dive plan before taking further action. Instead of returning to our entry point, do you want to explore for a few more minutes then ascend where we are (provided that the conditions allow that)? This is a tough one because I'm not in the business of abandoning a buddy, but at the same time my inability to breathe water could force me to do just that. If I'm with a buddy and we're following a DM who wants to push on, as far as I'm concerned we're turning around. I would hope the buddy feels the same way, and this would be a good question for interviewing a perspective dive buddy.

I think part of this also goes back to choosing dive buddies wisely and having that understanding that we plan the dive and dive the plan.

What would you do if the DM leading your boat dive went into a cave or other overhead environment?

No go for me. I would hope that a buddy I'm paired with feels the same way. I would signal the DM in protest before he enters that space. As long as I can maintain visual contact, I'll remain outside of the overhead environment. If I lose that visual contact, and I'm alone I guess I would treat this as a lost buddy situation and look for 1 minute before starting a safe ascent.

What would you do if your buddy inexplicably descended deeper (100+ fsw) than the two of you had discussed during pre-dive planning?

I guess the first thing I would do is assess the situation. Does my buddy appear to be in some sort of distress (narced or equipment issues) and need assistance? Is he in an uncontrolled descent where I could quickly reach him and help regain control? I think I would first signal him asking him to give me his depth and pressure readings, and whether or not he is OK. If he can easily do this I believe I can reasonably expect him to be coherent, and that he's not having any equipment issues and I would advise him to ascend to a depth that is within our dive plan. If he is having equipment issues I think I would have to try to assist him quickly before he gets too deep, then immediately start a slow ascent following our computers. I have to say that right now I am only OW certified and my dive budies certified with me. Right now none of us are comfortable enough to approach 100 fsw, much less deeper.

What would you do if your buddy wanted to go diving but you weren't comfortable with the dive conditions (high surf, current, low vis, rough seas, etc.)?

If I'm not comfortable with the conditions, I am not diving - end of story. I'm sorry if that disappoints my buddy. If my buddy isn't comfortable with conditions, I would expect the same of them. Yes, I would be disappointed but I would understand. I don't want to dive with an uncomfortable buddy any more than I would want to dive when I am uncomfortable.

What would you do if your buddy gave you "the thumb" on the dive but everything seemed like it was OK?

End the dive. I might be disappointed, and I would want to know what the problem was (just in case I could learn from it or possibly help them for future dives) but again - I don't want to dive with an uncomfortable buddy any more than I would want to dive when I am uncomfortable. I frequently remind my son & my son-in-law that any diver can end any dive for any reason, and expect them to abide by that. Two weeks ago, we ended a dive after a little under 20 minutes at a maximum depth of 23' because my son couldn't equalize 1 ear. After a short surface time, we tried again and he felt comfortable and thumbed the dive after just 2 minutes. We all surfaced and he got out of the water and called it a day while my son-in-law and I did a 30 minute or so dive.

 

[markmantei]

First off, great series of threads. Thanks Cave_Diver and bubbletrouble.

Now I'll jump in...

What would you do if you reached your agreed upon turnaround pressure and your buddy or the DM pushed on with the dive (rather than turning around)?
This is the point of discussing turn and ascent pressures in pre-dive planning. While the buddy is your backup in case of emergency it is situations like this that can make them a liability. First, I would be to be more forceful in the signalling (like give the pressure signal, then turn around, then home. If the buddy still refuses, then it is time to plan the end of the dive. If it is in a lake or on other area where a surface swim was fairly safe, I would thumb the dive (assuming the buddy hasn't listened so far, this would be out of couresty only), and make a safe controlled ascent, with safety stop. If this was not a safe course of action, then I would follow the previous exit plan and return to the upline or exit point. All things equal, they would not be my buddy again.

What would you do if the DM leading your boat dive went into a cave or other overhead environment?
Depends on how you define overhead environment. A short swim through, no problem, a cave would be a different animal althogether, and this should have been discussed in pre-dive planning. I have done cenotes (cavern) but this is done with a prior discussion, full awareness of what the environment is you will be entering, as well as additional safety precautions and procedures. Getting back to the "surprise, we are going in a cave", I would signal that my buddy team is staying together and splitting from the group. What happens next would depend on the environment, either end the dive or continue as a buddy team. Edit: Didn't see the part about the boat, which would mean ascend and signal the boat for pickup, assuming a drift dive where the boat was following bubbles.

What would you do if your buddy inexplicably descended deeper (100+ fsw) than the two of you had discussed during pre-dive planning?
Similar to the first answer, the initial reaction would be to initially follow and gain the buddy's attention and signal to check gauges, they may not have noticed their depth (this happened on a dive last year where the plan was not to exceed 60' but my buddy dropped like a rock on descent, and it was 80' before I could get their attention). If the deviation from the plan was intentional, then signal ending the dive and extricate myself if they refuse to comply. Now this all changes if you are dealing with nitrox and exceeding the MOD (although I might still due a short stint as long as it didn't exceed the contingency depth).

What would you do if your buddy wanted to go diving but you weren't comfortable with the dive conditions (high surf, current, low vis, rough seas, etc.)?
Inform the buddy that I am not comfortable with the conditions, and if they are they should feel free to join another buddy or team.

What would you do if your buddy gave you "the thumb" on the dive but everything seemed like it was OK?
If it was totally unexpected, I may signal a question as to the nature of the problem. If it is something we can resolve underwater, great, if it is is not at least I know what to watch on the exit so I can be of assistance (i.e. low air, equipment problem, etc), if the response is another thumb, then signal ok and ascend. At the end of the day, any diver, at any time, for any reasons. Thanks scubaboard!

As far as avoiding these situations, they all revolve around communication above and below the surface, but most importantly pre-dive planning.

 

[SoccerJeni]

I've not read anyone's responses, as I want to test myself...
Dive Planning & Trust Me Dives
* What would you do if you reached your agreed upon turnaround pressure and your buddy or the DM pushed on with the dive (rather than turning around)?
This is where it gets tough. What you're taught and what you're inclined to do I think can be two different things. Being completely honest, I think I would go along with this push for a bit. If it went on for a few minutes I would get their attention again and thumb the dive. They should respect that rule. If they don't, then here's the issue...have you been paying attention to where you have been and navigation? Do you need to return on your own and risk being alone without someone to bail you out if you have trouble? I would like to hear what the experts have to say here.

* What would you do if the DM leading your boat dive went into a cave or other overhead environment?

What a jerk! Lol. I would first think, crap, what is he/she doing? If this wasn't talked about before and they are springing this on me, then I would get their attention and signal no!!! I have been buddies with some DM's and been in a small overhead environment before, but it was talked about ahead of time. I wouldn't be okay enter a cave without proper training though.

* What would you do if your buddy inexplicably descended deeper (100+ fsw) than the two of you had discussed during pre-dive planning?

I need a rescue class! This very well could be wrong...but I would go down and get them, signal to come up a bit and make our ascent.

* What would you do if your buddy wanted to go diving but you weren't comfortable with the dive conditions (high surf, current, low vis, rough seas, etc.)?

I would say, it's not the best day for me, let's do it tomorrow or whenever works.

* What would you do if your buddy gave you "the thumb" on the dive but everything seemed like it was OK?

I've had this happen. Sometimes it's a miscommunication and the person is meaning to say "that's cool" and they are throwing up their thumb. So I got a question type look on my face, pointed at them, put up the thumb, then stick out my hands and shurg my shoulders as to say, is this what you mean? I have no idea if this is the wrong thing to do. I guess if they really meant to thumb the dive they would be more empahtic about it a second time and I would do as they wish?

 

[Cave Diver]

I've had this happen. Sometimes it's a miscommunication and the person is meaning to say "that's cool" and they are throwing up their thumb. So I got a question type look on my face, pointed at them, put up the thumb, then stick out my hands and shurg my shoulders as to say, is this what you mean? I have no idea if this is the wrong thing to do. I guess if they really meant to thumb the dive they would be more empahtic about it a second time and I would do as they wish?

This happens a lot with new divers. A thumbs up signal may be taught as simply "lets ascend" in some open water classes. It doesn't always have the "command tone" to them that it does for those with tech experience.

Also, getting used to the hand signals, a newer diver may often signal with a thumb to mean everything is ok, or something is cool because they're used to giving a in a surface connotation.

When you start walking around and flashing people the "ok" sign in response to questions, the signals are probably starting to sink in.

 

[Kenny13]

I've had this happen. Sometimes it's a miscommunication and the person is meaning to say "that's cool" and they are throwing up their thumb. So I got a question type look on my face, pointed at them, put up the thumb, then stick out my hands and shurg my shoulders as to say, is this what you mean? I have no idea if this is the wrong thing to do. I guess if they really meant to thumb the dive they would be more empahtic about it a second time and I would do as they wish?

I definitely understand how a thumb up can be mistaken or misunderstood, that's why when it is time to end a dive I make sure to make an up & down motion with my hand while the thumb is up so that it should be clear that I mean it is time to ascend and not that I am saying something is cool. I'd imagine that newer divers would somewhat frequently give a thumb up to mean they are having a good time or that something is cool.