What makes one cave dive "bigger" than the other?

[PfcAJ]

that could happen with or without a rating system

Yup. But once folks start dying in "easy" caves (as labeled by so called experts) it's easy to argue for closing them all.

 

[lermontov]

Yup. But once folks start dying in "easy" caves (as labeled by so called experts) it's easy to argue for closing them all.

it could but your not going to stop people doing things that have inherent risk -one could argue that by having a rating system it could prevent deaths by steering the prudent away from dives that are more serious, as Ive mentioned earlier the foolhardy or overly confidant already believe theyre ready and able.

the training agencies already have a guidebook of sorts eg no overheads without training no deeper than 30 m for OW no deco dives without training etc. A guidebook or rating system on a particular dive can be prefaced by stating suitable qualifications and suggested dive experience then a description of the dive giving depths times squeezes etc

If someone came to you seeking advice on a particular dive site that you had thorough knowledge, wouldn't you ask them pertinent questions such as how long have you been diving what dives have you done before what training do you have? and wouldn't you advise accordingly? how is putting a description to a dive site on paper any different given that the description covers such pertinent questions as aformentioned.

not sure of the percentages but the way I see it is that theres a group of divers that are willing to listen to caution and advice and there are those that aren't a guide book giving a rating system will be pertinent to those that are willing to listen- to those that aren't it wont make a differance

 

[PfcAJ]

it could but your not going to stop people doing things that have inherent risk -one could argue that by having a rating system it could prevent deaths by steering the prudent away from dives that are more serious, as Ive mentioned earlier the foolhardy or overly confidant already believe theyre ready and able.

the training agencies already have a guidebook of sorts eg no overheads without training no deeper than 30 m for OW no deco dives without training etc. A guidebook or rating system on a particular dive can be prefaced by stating suitable qualifications and suggested dive experience then a description of the dive giving depths times squeezes etc

If someone came to you seeking advice on a particular dive site that you had thorough knowledge, wouldn't you ask them pertinent questions such as how long have you been diving what dives have you done before what training do you have? and wouldn't you advise accordingly? how is putting a description to a dive site on paper any different given that the description covers such pertinent questions as aformentioned.

not sure of the percentages but the way I see it is that theres a group of divers that are willing to listen to caution and advice and there are those that aren't a guide book giving a rating system will be pertinent to those that are willing to listen- to those that aren't it wont make a differance

The difference is that I'm just a dude as opposed to some sort of organization or body that rates caves.

 

[bamafan]

I realize that whoever it is will not meet your criteria, but this sort of thing is done all the time in many different settings. To be as blunt as possible, it involves consensus building among experts. As I said earlier, I used to teach and manage the process. It is well established

I realize you are not from cave country so you probably aren't around that much but the people in charge of the cave agencies aren't what I would classify as the experts. The KUR and GUE guys for the most part are what I would classify as the experts in cave diving. Did you see the statement on Facebook by the CDS that there are no gold line T's in North Florida? If this isn't an example of the lack of experts at the CDS I really don't know what is.

 

[tbone1004]

I realize you are not from cave country so you probably aren't around that much but the people in charge of the cave agencies aren't what I would classify as the experts. The KUR and GUE guys for the most part are what I would classify as the experts in cave diving. Did you see the statement on Facebook by the CDS that there are no gold line T's in North Florida? If this isn't an example of the lack of experts at the CDS I really don't know what is.

I thought that they said there were no new gold lines t's? Either way, I wouldn't classify the heads of the agencies as the experts in something like this either. Honestly I wouldn't go to GUE either since their focus seems to be elsewhere these days, I'd go to the WKPP and KUR first....

 

[bamafan]

I thought that they said there were no new gold lines t's? Either way, I wouldn't classify the heads of the agencies as the experts in something like this either. Honestly I wouldn't go to GUE either since their focus seems to be elsewhere these days, I'd go to the WKPP and KUR first....

No it was there are no gold line T's in North Florida. Yeah I should have clarified WKPP but that is what I was referencing. I keep forgetting that you no longer have to be GUE to participate in their projects.

 

[tbone1004]

@bamafan no sh!t, he clearly hasn't been to JB in a while since there are 2 gold line T's within full cave limits just by kicking... Granted, those are the only ones I can think of that are within "reasonable" limits, i.e. no DPV and/or stage bottles, but still....

 

[bamafan]

@bamafan no sh!t, he clearly hasn't been to JB in a while since there are 2 gold line T's within full cave limits just by kicking... Granted, those are the only ones I can think of that are within "reasonable" limits, i.e. no DPV and/or stage bottles, but still....

What about upstream Hole. The Century Tunnel T (which is white line T'd into gold) is within the limits of a skilled intro diver. If he was referring to any T's and not just white line T's off the gold line then I guess he forgot about Little River. He has a house not far from there. No one from the CDS even questioned the statement so to me I am assuming they all agreed. Definitely made me question their actual diving experience.

 

[karstdvr]

Being goal driven is not necessarily a negative thing, and ego is required to strive for advancement and personal development but those words have connotations of bigheadedness and competitiveness,

The quest to see certain landmarks to be able to define yourself as a cave diver is what "goal driven" cave diving has come to denote. There a pseudo-measuring stick with which to compare yourself against others at the fill station, or tank bench, and this defines your cave diving "machismo". For example-the well casing, the Heinkel, the grand traverse, the EOL at xxxxx etc etc. The problem is having these goal driven dives has had many people push limits and exceed a progressive experience level in order to have these merit badges, and in a couple cases been responsible for a fatal accident. Now to be goal driven to improve buoyancy, improve trim, better cave awareness etc, not a bad thing.

 

[ofg-1]

As much as I hate to be serious about anything, I see a lot of problems with this concept.
Kelly is right, you are going to start driving goal driven dives rather than skill driven dives. Who is going to tell the diver what level cave he is supposed to be diving? More important, where is self awareness and personal responsibility in this? You are back to talking about cave police. If you have a "level 10" cave, who is going to stand there and make sure a "level 4" diver does not get an erection and decide to go in there?
Guys, I have been an a lot of Florida caves in the last 45 years. I can't think of one of them, not JB, Peacock, LR, Ginnie, any of them, that with one short jump off the mainline you cant get into a bunch of really tight, silty, clayey sidemount/nomount stuff, and you know some idiot has left a line in it. I mean guys, we have had multiple people pile up at the half hitch in Madison, a couple of them pretty good cave divers.

This is an exercise in mental masturbation.