What makes one regulator better than another?

[Belzelbub]

What happens to owners of their (or any other smaller brand, single product manufacturer) regs if/when they go out of business? Are they still serviceable using generic parts or are you SOL ?

See below.

You mean, like Healthways? Or Dacor, or Aeris or SubTech. Or...
Those guys were medium to big dogs once upon a time. Try finding parts now.

Yep. You may also see similar with brands still in existence. Older models that are just too different from current models, and the manufacturer decides, for one reason or another to end support. How they handle that can be very different.

On one end, you have Mares and Dacor. Mares bought Dacor, and soon after killed the brand and effectively ended support.

On the other end, you can look at Zeagle and Apeks. Early Zeagle regulators were rebadged Apeks. Zeagle was the US Distributor for Apeks. When that relationship changed, Zeagle was no longer able to rely on getting parts for the Apeks clones. Their response was a limited time buyback. Owners had a limited time where they could return their older Zeagles for newer Zeagles.

Ultimately, there is no guarantee that a brand will still be around 5 or 10 years down the road, but that’s the same with just about everything, and largely unpredictable. What is more predictable is on-going support for models. Some brands use a single service kit across their entire line. That’s a pretty good indicator of future support. The LDS should be able to tell you how many kits a manufacturer uses.

 

[Geo7]

I must say I appreciate 2nd stage design that keys in the barrel using a squared part of the barrel (and look closely at the tolerances between the plastic housing and the barrel).

With round barrels that position the barrels just with tabs (like on my Apeks), I had to use two spanners to counter the jam nut. With squared barrels I can travel with one spanner and do not need to open the reg to observe barrel positioning when fitting a hose to the reg.

Perhaps not a big issue, just my pet peeve, but I think it makes such regs better (Scubapro, Atomic, Kirby Morgan, Poseidon, who else?).

(If having hoses only fingertight to swap 2nd stages then the barrel design does not matter, but this not a cave-diving practice that should be generalized to all diving, IMHO.)

 

[rsingler]

I must say I appreciate 2nd stage design that keys in the barrel using a squared part of the barrel (and look closely at the tolerances between the plastic housing and the barrel).

With round barrels that position the barrels just with tabs (like on my Apeks), I had to use two spanners to counter the jam nut. With squared barrels I can travel with one spanner and do not need to open the reg to observe barrel positioning when fitting a hose to the reg.

Perhaps not a big issue, just my pet peeve, but I think it makes such regs better (Scubapro, Atomic, Kirby Morgan, who else?).

(If having hoses only fingertight to swap 2nd stages then the barrel design does not matter, but this not a cave-diving practice that should be generalized to all diving, IMHO.)

View attachment 662223

It's gotten worse with the latest Apeks MTX-R second stages. They frankly admit that you have to brace the barrel to even tighten the case nut on the hose side. I honestly believe that Apeks is falling behind the rest of the industry here. For some reason, they've engineered some weird case designs. Can someone tell me how to remove the XL4 face cover easily? I've done the service course and "passed the test" and the thing is still a PITA.
But...it's a "toolless" removal. Hurray, except that the locking feature sucks.

 

[Geo7]

The convoluted faceplates we see nowadays throughout the market is another thing that is dissapointing. It would be best to return to coarse threads, minimal parts, and a design that does not require the faceplate to sit level, and instead being torqued as desired.

With some modern regs I have a hard time getting the front plate off without tools, and then level out the square purge buttons or logos again. I prefer designs like on the G250 classic; Atomic M1 with cave cover; G260 modified; Apeks with aftermarket delrin front plate.

 

[Vallonen]

The car analogy, often used by dive shop sales staff, is very weak, to the point of being nonsensical. Cars are very complex machines that have to do all sorts of things well, and are directly responsible for safety in a crash. Newer cars are generally more reliable with all sorts of safety features. Regulators are just basic valves, and if you are diving correctly, (i.e. with a buddy or other form of alternate air source) then their failure is an inconvenience, nothing more.

The one aspect of the car analogy that has any relevance at all is the fact that some people buy (or sell) cars based on self image and/or narcissism, and some divers (and dealers) do the same with regulators.

It's used because people can understand it, that's the entire purpose of an analogy, to help bring someone to an understanding drawing from something he can relate too.

It's an analogy used between sailing boats (not including sailing catamarans and sailing trimarans, those are different sailing vessels) all the time. Sure, sometimes it's a hit and miss and so forth but it works pretty well.

FYI.
Modern cars are not that reliable, too much tech, I would argue cars were the most reliable mid 90's, back then they were mostly built to a standard and not a price point. They were also designed by engineers and not tech and marketing people, who appear to have taken over completely.

But I'm digressing.

 

[kmarks]

My Mk17's drift up in IP about 7-9 psi from 3000 to 300 tank pressure. Average typical diaphragm performance.
My Mk19EVO drifts up about 4 psi from full to empty. Better.
My Signature drifts down about 3 psi from full to empty, like a piston reg! That's very cool engineering of the balance chamber and poppet stem diameter to accomplish that! Crisp IP lockup and no creep. Only 12-15 psi dynamic IP drop on full purge from a good second stage on a half-full tank. That too is great performance.

What's the significance of what, to me, seems like a pretty minor IP creep? I'm not a reg technician, so this is just gibberish to me. Why is falling IP better than rising IP? How does that affect real world performance?

What happens to owners of their (or any other smaller brand, single product manufacturer) regs if/when they go out of business? Are they still serviceable using generic parts or are you SOL ?

Considering I paid $300 for my Deep 6 regs (Scribble and two blue signatures from the Black Friday sale in 2018), if something terrible should happen and I can't get them serviced, they are practically disposable. Don't get me wrong, they don't operate like cheap disposable regs and I plan to keep them as long as possible.

 

[kelemvor]

Modern cars are not that reliable, too much tech, I would argue cars were the most reliable mid 90's, back then they were mostly built to a standard and not a price point. They were also designed by engineers and not tech and marketing people, who appear to have taken over completely.

Interesting opinion. Unfortunately for you, automobile reliability is something that's tracked, and it has improved over the years. Perhaps you are just bitter because you don't understand your own car.

Here's one example, there are plenty of others. I'll let you do the searching and reading yourself. Car Reliability Histories

 

[rsingler]

What's the significance of what, to me, seems like a pretty minor IP creep?

Absolutely zero (well, almost zero) significance.
To me, it's just a sign of precision in design and execution. When (in a second stage) the difference between perfectly tuned and dangerously untuned can be as little as 0.4 mm in orifice position, precision is everything.
Since we largely dive balanced second stages, they tolerate wide swings in IP with no noticeable effect on breathing. But some manufacturers are, to my mind, a bit sloppy on the engineering front because of that.

Having a rising vs falling IP is just a legacy observation from unbalanced days. Tank pressure helps push an unbalanced piston shaft away from the seat, so falling tank pressure means less assist in keeping an unbalanced piston valve open, and IP falls with tank pressure.
Conversely, tank pressure helps push an unbalanced diaphragm poppet shut, so that with falling tank pressure, closing forces are less and IP drifts up.
Theoretically, with a balanced design those effects are eliminated. To a geek, the extent that unbalanced effects are eliminated is a sign of design excellence. Some mfrs do well, others not.

Scubapro, for example, is later to the diaphragm market than Aqualung/US Divers. Their earlier attempts were less balanced than their new Mk19 EVO, so it's nice to see progress.

Mares, in contrast, STILL uses unbalanced second stages with their little Venturi side tube to assist ease of breathing. A robust design, it is nonetheless relatively unsophisticated, suffering from earlier seat failure because of the heavy spring forces. Nonetheless, perhaps because an unbalanced second is very sensitive to changing IP, Mares has superb IP stability designed in at the beginning. My old MR22 has zero to one psi of IP shift all the way from 3000 to 300 psi. Beautiful balancing! But the recommended IP for the second stage is higher than other brands, because a higher IP helps open the primitive downstream valve of their second stage.

Does any of this matter? Only on ScubaBoard, and maybe below 100ft.
As I think about rebreather diving, it really can matter. Having a poorly balanced diaphragm on your oxygen bottle can mean that your solenoid has to work harder to open as the tank empties and IP rises. It's powered by a little 9V battery, and runs best against low IP.

 

[Vallonen]

Interesting opinion. Unfortunately for you, automobile reliability is something that's tracked, and it has improved over the years. Perhaps you are just bitter because you don't understand your own car.

Here's one example, there are plenty of others. I'll let you do the searching and reading yourself. Car Reliability Histories

It's based on my experiences with various automobiles.

It's like public health. No such thing. There is only health of individuals, the rest is statistics.

As for cars from the 90's? There are less things that can go wrong.

 

[halocline]

What's the significance of what, to me, seems like a pretty minor IP creep?

It's not IP creep. Creep is when the seal between the seat and orifice (or piston) is not perfect and a slow leak of high pressure air into the IP chamber occurs. What rsingler is talking about is the characteristic of some regulators to seal at a different IP when the tank is full than when it is near empty. This is a design issue, whereas IP creep is a malfunction that gets fixed (hopefully!) at servicing.

The effect that rsingler is talking about has very little real-world significance, just as he explained in his typically thorough reply.