What skills did your instructor model?

[*dave*]

Ok, here's the thing...

As you know, skills like mask re & re and reg recovery are introduced in shallow water so the student who has a sudden panic attack or loses control can just stand up. With the student on the bottom & the Instructor not within easy reach of the student, if there is a problem (e.g. the student cannot locate h/h reg during the reg recovery) then what are you going to do about it from so far away? Esp if you need to replace the student's reg for them or give them your octo.

IOW, my concern is with the safety of the student, not whether or not the Instructor is "modeling good trim and buoyancy control". If your student is on the bottom, then you should be on the bottom; if you're in mid water, then the student needs to be there too.

While this is off topic and a pm or post in I2I would have been a more appropriate place to discuss this, the thread isn't going anywhere, so.....

You have indicated it is unsafe for an instructor to be in the column while a student is on the bottom. As a professional, you have an ethical obligation to report such dangers. In order to expedite that process, my name is David Herbert and my SSI OWI# is 24940.

As to your concern regarding separation..... It takes less than a second to gain control over the student. On reg retrievals, it's fairly obvious when there is an issue. If a student is fumbling, I reach out and hand him his reg or my secondary and the drill is terminated. If the skill runs longer than 10 seconds, it is terminated in the same manner.

Does the student in the video look like they are having issues? As this would be at least the 7th time through the skills (3 times shallow, 3 times deep and at least once in the column) by this time, they are quite comfortable with the skills. Were that not the case, they would still be doing them in the shallow end of the pool.

In the unlikely event that a student should bolt, there are definite warning signs as well as specific skills that are more prone to result in bolting if the student is not prepared. This point is usually during the mask removal and replace and I'll position myself slightly higher in the column in preparation to intercept. I usually know they'll bolt before they do and the drill is terminated. I've had one student bolt in the last three years and it's not because I'm lucky or only instruct gifted students.

Being neutral and in trim as much as possible is also safer than being nailed to the bottom, IMO. While the student performing skills is the priority, there are other students in the pool who need to be monitored. How do you react to a situation 30' away when you're nailed to the bottom?

At what point, if ever, do you feel confident enough in your student's skills that you don't need to be 2" away? If we don't have confidence in our product, are we doing our job? I don't think so.

BTW, I sent a link to the vid, along with your concerns to SSI. Though the TD believed posting video was a potential for disaster in terms of liability for me, there was no breech of standards. Still, were I you and I seriously believed there was a safety issue in this practice, I'd report it.... I'd have to.

In any case, I'll put you down as opposed to instructors holding trim and solid buoyancy control. Thanks for your reply.

 

[Andy077]

Mine did a great job of modeling the proper way to dig up shellfish for 20 minutes while his students kneeled on the bottom waiting.
Worst.
Instructor.
Ever.

 

[SubMariner]

Ok, here's the thing...

As you know, skills like mask re & re and reg recovery are introduced in shallow water so the student who has a sudden panic attack or loses control can just stand up. With the student on the bottom & the Instructor not within easy reach of the student, if there is a problem (e.g. the student cannot locate h/h reg during the reg recovery) then what are you going to do about it from so far away? Esp if you need to replace the student's reg for them or give them your octo.

IOW, my concern is with the safety of the student, not whether or not the Instructor is "modeling good trim and buoyancy control". If your student is on the bottom, then you should be on the bottom; if you're in mid water, then the student needs to be there too.

While this is off topic and a pm or post in I2I would have been a more appropriate place to discuss this, the thread isn't going anywhere, so.....

You have indicated it is unsafe for an instructor to be in the column while a student is on the bottom. As a professional, you have an ethical obligation to report such dangers. In order to expedite that process, my name is David Herbert and my SSI OWI# is 24940.

As to your concern regarding separation..... It takes less than a second to gain control over the student. On reg retrievals, it's fairly obvious when there is an issue. If a student is fumbling, I reach out and hand him his reg or my secondary and the drill is terminated. If the skill runs longer than 10 seconds, it is terminated in the same manner.

Does the student in the video look like they are having issues? As this would be at least the 7th time through the skills (3 times shallow, 3 times deep and at least once in the column) by this time, they are quite comfortable with the skills. Were that not the case, they would still be doing them in the shallow end of the pool.

In the unlikely event that a student should bolt, there are definite warning signs as well as specific skills that are more prone to result in bolting if the student is not prepared. This point is usually during the mask removal and replace and I'll position myself slightly higher in the column in preparation to intercept. I usually know they'll bolt before they do and the drill is terminated. I've had one student bolt in the last three years and it's not because I'm lucky or only instruct gifted students.

Being neutral and in trim as much as possible is also safer than being nailed to the bottom, IMO. While the student performing skills is the priority, there are other students in the pool who need to be monitored. How do you react to a situation 30' away when you're nailed to the bottom?

At what point, if ever, do you feel confident enough in your student's skills that you don't need to be 2" away? If we don't have confidence in our product, are we doing our job? I don't think so.

BTW, I sent a link to the vid, along with your concerns to SSI. Though the TD believed posting video was a potential for disaster in terms of liability for me, there was no breech of standards. Still, were I you and I seriously believed there was a safety issue in this practice, I'd report it.... I'd have to.

In any case, I'll put you down as opposed to instructors holding trim and solid buoyancy control. Thanks for your reply.

Wow... talk about over-reacting! :amazed:

Since you seem to equate any view other than your own as a personal attack on your integrity as an Instructor, I will send you a PM to discuss your "reply" to my post.

'Nuff said...

 

[Jim Lapenta]

There is also the issue that seems to render some of this moot if the mask remove and replace is taken care of before they even get on scuba. And clearing the snorkel during ascent to the surface is good for reducing much of the stress of the reg clear. Being neutral in the water column also makes it easier to repond quicker if there is a problem. Last night was in the pool til 9PM going over mask remove and replace, reg recovery, and weightbelt while neutral and horizontal. This was session two on scuba. Sesssion one on scuba was all about proper weighting(nobody is ever overweighted from day one), buoyancy control, and trim with mask clear and reg remove and replace.

I also do not have modules that I need to teach. Students are shown and taught skills based on their performance and what I think will best aid them at the time. I can change the order of when skills are done such as doing a bailout before the doff and don. Or put the paniced diver at the suface after the unconscious diver from the bottom of the pool. I can do a buddy breathing swim before or after the no mask swim. Or before the air share with octo/no mask swim.

 

[*dave*]

Wow... talk about over-reacting! :amazed:

First, that was a response, not a reaction. Perhaps it was a bit strong, so let's take a look at what prompted it in just a sec....

Since you seem to equate any view other than your own as a personal attack on your integrity as an Instructor, I will send you a PM to discuss your "reply" to my post.

'Nuff said...

Had I considered this a personal attack on my integrity, my response would have been quite different. I have no issue with anyone holding a view that differs from my own, but when an instructor posts that my training techniques are unsafe, they will receive a reply.

Let's take a look at what I was responding to:

I'm a little confused as to what this video was supposed to represent.....

This entire post felt like a troll. Were you really confused about what I was conveying?

....Meanwhile, was this an actual confined water session where the Instructor was teaching these skills & then having the student perform them to pass that particular module? Or just some play sessions where the Instructor was just wandering around randomly having students perform skills?

In the OP, I stated the video took place on the third pool session. I'm not PADI and I don't know what gets taught when in your modules, but I teach all basic skills the first night on SCUBA. They are taught in the shallow and students don't progress to deep until I am certain they are comfortable and confident in doing the skills.

In what module are basic skills taught in PADI? I'd hope students would have been taught the skills represented in the video before the third session and I'd even bet that they do. I would expect it to be very obvious to any instructor that there was no teaching taking place in that video.

So, when an instructor, such as yourself, having thousands of dives and over a decade of experience asks if the instructor in the vid is teaching a basic skill on the third pool session, it smells even more like a troll.

Knowing you were trolling, but unsure where your troll would go, I replied:

All skills displayed in the video would have been introduced in the previous pools session, I don't do modules. Each pools session starts with skills reviewed shallow and again deep. The video would be the deep review.

Why do you ask?

Ok, here's the thing...

As you know, skills like mask re & re and reg recovery are introduced in shallow water so the student who has a sudden panic attack or loses control can just stand up. With the student on the bottom & the Instructor not within easy reach of the student, if there is a problem (e.g. the student cannot locate h/h reg during the reg recovery) then what are you going to do about it from so far away? Esp if you need to replace the student's reg for them or give them your octo.

I read this and wondered if you even watched the vid or read my posts. You imply the instructor in the vid is too far away to donate a reg, yet he's inches away from the student when the student extends his arm during the recovery and no more than 3' distant at any time. I've run this vid by a couple instructors and the TD for SSI and asked them to identify the issues they saw. There were a couple issues, but nothing you have identified.

IOW, my concern is with the safety of the student, not whether or not the Instructor is "modeling good trim and buoyancy control". If your student is on the bottom, then you should be on the bottom; if you're in mid water, then the student needs to be there too.

Here, I'm understanding you to say the video represents an unsafe practice.

I believe any instructor's prime directive should be protecting the students safety and I suspect you feel the same. However, my greatest concern for their safety is that they be competent as divers after certification. If you feel your students could bolt at any given second, I don't think they should be in the deep end of the pool.

Like I said, maybe I misunderstood you. Do you not feel the video represents an unsafe situation? If you do feel it is unsafe, I stand by previous statement: You are ethically obligated to report it.

In my view, this is more about your integrity, than mine.

 

[*dave*]

Great points, Jim. The idea of mastery before progression seems a foreign concept to some. Personally, I wouldn't instruct if I didn't have confidence in my product.

There is also the issue that seems to render some of this moot if the mask remove and replace is taken care of before they even get on scuba. And clearing the snorkel during ascent to the surface is good for reducing much of the stress of the reg clear. Being neutral in the water column also makes it easier to repond quicker if there is a problem. Last night was in the pool til 9PM going over mask remove and replace, reg recovery, and weightbelt while neutral and horizontal. This was session two on scuba. Sesssion one on scuba was all about proper weighting(nobody is ever overweighted from day one), buoyancy control, and trim with mask clear and reg remove and replace.

I also do not have modules that I need to teach. Students are shown and taught skills based on their performance and what I think will best aid them at the time. I can change the order of when skills are done such as doing a bailout before the doff and don. Or put the paniced diver at the suface after the unconscious diver from the bottom of the pool. I can do a buddy breathing swim before or after the no mask swim. Or before the air share with octo/no mask swim.

 

[SubMariner]

First, that was a response, not a reaction. Perhaps it was a bit strong, so let's take a look at what prompted it in just a sec....


Had I considered this a personal attack on my integrity, my response would have been quite different. I have no issue with anyone holding a view that differs from my own, but when an instructor posts that my training techniques are unsafe, they will receive a reply.

Let's take a look at what I was responding to:


This entire post felt like a troll. Were you really confused about what I was conveying?

In the OP, I stated the video took place on the third pool session. I'm not PADI and I don't know what gets taught when in your modules, but I teach all basic skills the first night on SCUBA. They are taught in the shallow and students don't progress to deep until I am certain they are comfortable and confident in doing the skills.

In what module are basic skills taught in PADI? I'd hope students would have been taught the skills represented in the video before the third session and I'd even bet that they do. I would expect it to be very obvious to any instructor that there was no teaching taking place in that video.

So, when an instructor, such as yourself, having thousands of dives and over a decade of experience asks if the instructor in the vid is teaching a basic skill on the third pool session, it smells even more like a troll.

Knowing you were trolling, but unsure where your troll would go, I replied:

I read this and wondered if you even watched the vid or read my posts. You imply the instructor in the vid is too far away to donate a reg, yet he's inches away from the student when the student extends his arm during the recovery and no more than 3' distant at any time. I've run this vid by a couple instructors and the TD for SSI and asked them to identify the issues they saw. There were a couple issues, but nothing you have identified.



Here, I'm understanding you to say the video represents an unsafe practice.

I believe any instructor's prime directive should be protecting the students safety and I suspect you feel the same. However, my greatest concern for their safety is that they be competent as divers after certification. If you feel your students could bolt at any given second, I don't think they should be in the deep end of the pool.

Like I said, maybe I misunderstood you. Do you not feel the video represents an unsafe situation? If you do feel it is unsafe, I stand by previous statement: You are ethically obligated to report it.

In my view, this is more about your integrity, than mine.

Evidently, in my 10 years here on SB I’ve missed my calling. Why make genuine posts when all this time I could have been trolling? Who’d a thunk it!?

First & foremost, since I wasn’t in the pool at the time this video was made, I have no first-hand knowledge of the identity of the person who is the Instructor. You tell me it’s you. Ok. <shrug> Nice buoyancy control. Is that the pat on the back you’re looking for?

As to “your” positioning with regard to where “you” are and where “your” non-certified open water student is, I disagree with the positioning as shown in the video. I still maintain that as an Instructor you should be where your student is, whether it be in mid-water or on the bottom.

Clear enough?

 

[*dave*]

Evidently, in my 10 years here on SB I’ve missed my calling. Why make genuine posts when all this time I could have been trolling? Who’d a thunk it!?

I think it would be a vast improvement over playing the victim, but you'll need to work at it.

You tell me it’s you. Ok. <shrug> Nice buoyancy control. Is that the pat on the back you’re looking for?

If I were looking for a pat on the back, I'd solicit it from someone whose opinion I actually value. I stated pretty clearly what I was looking for, but let me restate: Did your instructor model good buoyancy and trim during your OW course and do you think it is important that an instructor do so?

Pretty damn simple question, I think.

As to “your” positioning with regard to where “you” are and where “your” non-certified open water student is, I disagree with the positioning as shown in the video. I still maintain that as an Instructor you should be where your student is, whether it be in mid-water or on the bottom.

Clear enough?

Thanks for stating that as your opinion, rather than as a statement of fact. Would you care to discuss the pros and cons of each, preferably without the incessant jabs?

 

[TEArrington]

In response to the original question, no my instructor did not. I am not saying he was incapable, only that my OW class was in a pool so tiny that there was little room for him to do so. I'm sure it was larger than a bathtub, but I am not sure it was as big as the pool in my parents' back yard. There were 7 students (2 of whom were annoying children), the instructor and a DM. Tight squeeze. We spent all of our time on our knees against a wall in the shallow end unless it was our turn to demonstrate a skill.

I got a referral to do my checkout dives on vacation, and the new instructor once again did not demonstrate proper trim, etc. He was obviously neutrally buoyant, and wasn't banging into coral, but spent most of our dive time look like he was reclining in a hammock or a lounge chair rather than the diver pose I aim for now - horizontal with legs slightly bent up at the knees.

Fortunately, my "adoptive" LDS owner, instructors, and dive club members all strive to model good dive form, including proper altitude and attitude. From the first time I went diving with them, I realized I was a hot mess and I've been working hard to continuously learn & improve ever since.

 

[kaerius]

I don't know if it helped because while I asked a couple questions of the DMs and Instructor from my OW dives (different shop) I didn't think to ask about those particular issues. I asked about silting because I felt like I was doing a lot of it, partly due to being overweighted, but certainly due to inexperience. I still don't know how to properly avoid silting other than getting better buoyancy control, which I figure will take a few more dives at a minimum.

It's also about how you kick, and to some extent, the fins you use.

Since I can't teach you in person, watch these helpful youtube videos with kicks that are good for not stirring up silt.
YouTube - Learn To Scuba Dive - Frog Kick Technique
YouTube - The Flutter Kick