What skills did your instructor model?

[TeriLeonard]

As I watched the video I was wondering why the instructor was not in a better position to instantly assist the student if there was a problem. I have taught hundreds of students in shallow ocean water right off the beach in "pool-like conditions". If I was not on my knees I would have been moving back and forth with the mild surge which means that I would not be in a good position to help my students.
Having said this, the open water dive immediately following confined water one has always been spent almost entirely on buoyancy and trim techniques.

 

[TeriLeonard]

I think what I am trying to point out is that there is no one right way of teaching. The instructor makes the difference, not necessarily the technique.

 

[*dave*]

As I watched the video I was wondering why the instructor was not in a better position to instantly assist the student if there was a problem.

He is in fine position to assist the student. I could post several clips showing exactly that, but I won't. Besides, surge was very light in the pool the day that vid was shot.

I was certified in 78' and we learned skills on our knees, but it was a 12 session course and a great deal of time was spent on buoyancy control. The instructors worked from their knees and when I became an AI, I worked from mine.

When I became a DC, everyone taught and reviewed while kneeling and so did I. As an instructor, I went through the IDC on my knees. I know what it's like to teach on my knees, but have discovered teaching from a hover provides more flexibility without adding risk.

As an instructor, I need to respond to safety issues in the pool. I might be doing skills with a student and suddenly need to intercept a descending student who is about to crash into another student. I may see students engaging in unsafe activities and need to intervene. If I'm nailed to the bottom, it takes longer to respond.

In OW, nobody is on their knees. Our waters are pretty cold and having students on their knees reduces their ability to stay warm. We do skills on the move and in the column.

The question I have for those who think kneeling is a better position is this: How many times have you tried working from the column? If you haven't tried it or been exposed to it, how can you make an informed decision?

 

[*dave*]

The instructor makes the difference, not necessarily the technique.

I don't think I totally agree.

I don't consider myself to be a great instructor, but I do consider my students to be far above average upon completion of the course. I attribute their success to a number of things that have nothing to do with me. I'm nearly certain most any instructor could put out the same quality of diver using the techniques I've been using.

IMO, the primary component of success is a student's desire to learn.

 

[wrybosome]

Did your instructor model good buoyancy and trim during your OW course and do you think it is important that an instructor do so?

Yes and yes. During ~3 of the 5 classroom sessions he went into detail about the importance of buoyancy and trim. Then he modeled it for us while we knelt, and had us do the same. He also had us demo some of our skills (mask clearing, reg retrieval) in a horizontal postion off the bottom.

A few weeks ago I had the chance to tag along on dives 3 and 4 of his last OW class and I was impressed at how they looked. 3/4 of them were able to descend to the 25' platform for skill demos without landing on it. Just touched down with a hand, and adjusted buoyancy for a minute. During the 'tour' dive they dove on a Cessna in 35 ffw, and were able to go in and out of the cockpit, under the wings, etc without stirring up much silt. I was impressed, especially in comparison to some classes I've seen at this site.

But I don't see how you could teach people about neutral buoyancy without demoing it that way (student kneeling). If the student was trying for the first time to hold postion at 9' in a pool a lot of them would be too task loaded to watch you. It makes sense to me to have them kneeling for the lesson on this, so they can see how what you do affects their buoyancy. Just my two cents.

 

[TCDiver1]

I was certified in 78' and we learned skills on our knees, but it was a 12 session course and a great deal of time was spent on buoyancy control. The instructors worked from their knees and when I became an AI, I worked from mine.

True BCD's were far from mainstream in our neck of the woods when i took OW in 1979. We had the old USD horse collars with the CO2 cartridges as i recall and spent little time working on buoyancy control. Much less time than todays mainstream standards require. It was a good course for it's time. I learned what i needed to keep diving safely all these years and still be alive today. I have no complaints.

The question I have for those who think kneeling is a better position is this: How many times have you tried working from the column? If you haven't tried it or been exposed to it, how can you make an informed decision?

I've done it both ways and feel there is a time and a place for everything. If you have a group of students who take to buoyancy and trim well in confined water, and/or your ratios are low, you have less to worry about with maintaining safe control over your students and can easily control the group if demonstrating in column. This i agree with.

If students are having a time getting the hang of it, and/or i have no assistants to aid in keeping control of the group, and/or the ratios are high, i find that i can respond quicker sometimes not working in the column. You simply have less leverage to move as fast if you are neutral in the column. YMMV but that's what worked for me.

On another note. I know Submariner pretty well and think you took her comments out of context. She appeared to only be giving you her opinion. Things escalated after that but you might consider checking the chip on your shoulder when it comes this topic. One thing i can promise you is that Submariner is not a troll. That one you can take to the bank.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Kneeling in the beginning many times is counter productive when you see students falling over backwards, sideways, etc. It puts them under even more stress in what is most likely an already stressful situation (breathing-underwater-HOLY CRAP I'M NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS!). I don;t have students in anything resembling a kneeling position intentionally. There are times when say the buddy breathing skill will start out with us in contact with the bottom but after that it is done swimming. Some students may also start out with their knees touching to do the doff and don but that is becasue if the bc is not completely empty it may follow them on the ascent if they don't lay the weight belt on it properly. If they kneel for a second or two to adjust something or make contact with the bottom momentarily it is ok. But it is understood that in OW kneeling is not an option for skills that are done there.

I was taught on my knees all the way up through DM. UNtil I found this board and an instructor who knew better I thought it was normal. It may be normal for some but it now makes no sense to me. As an instructor it is easier to respond to issues and for students to be neutral. Another issue is where does it say that only the instructor can respond to an issue.

I have my students buddied up from day one. When evaluating skills with individuals their buddy is required to be right next to them with their eyes on me and them. During air shares I do with a student the buddy is right next to us with his/her hand on their octo ready to donate. They are told that if I don;t respond fast enough (I of course always do) I want them to be ready to donate. If they think like this from the beginning they do not have to think later on should the occaision require it. They just act in the right way.

Another reason that taking rescue skills out of OW is one of the stupidest ideas ever.

 

[Stu S.]

We had the old USD horse collars with the CO2 cartridges as i recall and spent little time working on buoyancy control.

In June 1977, our instructor showed us something. Ascend to the surface and use the new horsecollar with power inflator to float on the surface. Then he opened a small container, removed a cigarette and lit it. After his smoke break it was back down below to finish our checkout dives.

Our buoyancy training was mostly correct weight selection. That was helpful as I did not use a BC for a number of years.

 

[*dave*]

But I don't see how you could teach people about neutral buoyancy without demoing it that way (student kneeling). If the student was trying for the first time to hold postion at 9' in a pool a lot of them would be too task loaded to watch you. It makes sense to me to have them kneeling for the lesson on this, so they can see how what you do affects their buoyancy. Just my two cents.

It's a progression. I put students on their knees initially to learn skills, but move them to a fin pivot as soon as they have shown me they can execute in a reliably safe manner. Once they are comfortable with skills while doing a fin pivot, I move them into the column and skills are conducted there. This might take several sessions or it might take only one. However, it's not a matter of saying "here's what it looks like, now let's get back to our knees". That doesn't work, in my opinion. Constant control needs to be shown, imnsho.

But, I do agree with you. Too much, too soon can be as unproductive as too little, too late.

 

[*dave*]

I've done it both ways and feel there is a time and a place for everything. If you have a group of students who take to buoyancy and trim well in confined water, and/or your ratios are low, you have less to worry about with maintaining safe control over your students and can easily control the group if demonstrating in column. This i agree with.

If students are having a time getting the hang of it, and/or i have no assistants to aid in keeping control of the group, and/or the ratios are high, i find that i can respond quicker sometimes not working in the column. You simply have less leverage to move as fast if you are neutral in the column. YMMV but that's what worked for me.

I don't understand what the student's ability has to do with an instructor's position in the column. I can't think of a situation that could arise which could not be dealt with as well or better while neutral and in the column. What sort of situations do you see which would be better handled with the instructor on their knees.

On another note. I know Submariner pretty well and think you took her comments out of context. She appeared to only be giving you her opinion. Things escalated after that but you might consider checking the chip on your shoulder when it comes this topic. One thing i can promise you is that Submariner is not a troll. That one you can take to the bank.

I have no doubt that this is true and I'm also quite certain my response would have been more reflective of that had she stayed on topic or taken her issues up in I2I or via PM. She's implied that I am an unsafe instructor in an open forum and that demands a response. She's made numerous personal slams on me, which I've ignored, mostly, but has refused to answer direct questions relating to her statements.

I actually regret calling her a troll, as I really do try to focus on principles rather than personalities. While my dealings with her in the past have left me with my own opinion of her, that opinion has no place on this board.

SM, I apologize for calling you a troll, but stand by everything else I've stated.