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What type of training...

Discussion in 'Technical Diving' started by Peter Guy, Apr 4, 2010.

  1. Blackwood

    Blackwood DIR Practitioner

    # of Dives: None - Not Certified
    Location: Southern California
    5,535
    318
    Yah, and I think that can end up being counter-productive (if you react in a class differently than you would IRL).
     
  2. TSandM

    TSandM Missed and loved by many. Rest in Peace ScubaBoard Supporter

    36,349
    13,624
    I didn't actually fail the class -- I provisionaled, and couldn't get done what David required for a reeval. And yes, it bothers me. But I provisionaled Rec Triox and reevaled three or four TIMES and never passed it and that doesn't bother me near as much, because the teaching style and the instructor's attitude was totally different.

    I do know a number of tech instructors (and I took a class from one of them, and passed it, and it was a good class) whose belief is that you have to take students to the breaking point, so they'll know where it is and what happens when they get there. I'm pretty sure Trace has written about making his classes much harder for people who are good. It seems to me that you can do things one of two ways . . . you can either decide what a standard for passing your class is, and set the class up to ask those questions, or you can decide that the purpose of your class is to find out what the maximum is that the student can deliver. I'm just not entirely sure whether taking the latter tack is really any more productive.

    BTW, classes can be hard not because the students are heavily stressed in them, but because the attention to detail in the things they do is so high. I can't remember how many S-drills we did for Danny Riordan, because they were never perfect. When I took Full Cave, my instructor told me I was the best student to do an air-share with that he had had in a long time. That was all Danny. I'm not sure how much difference that attention to detail would make in a real air-sharing situation, but I can tell you I won't lose buoyancy or trim or position or the line or kick up any silt, and I'll keep eye contact with the guy I'm donating to!
     
  3. Trace Malinowski

    Trace Malinowski Cave Instructor

    # of Dives: 5,000 - ∞
    Location: Alexandria Bay, NY
    2,325
    2,526
    Lynne,

    You and I know that I've been where you are when I took DIR-F from Bob after doing Andrew's classes. Like you, I took other training just to see what else was out there and find out how different organizations do things. At the end of the day, I developed a respect for all my instructors, their agencies, and philosophies. It all made me a better diver and I'm a far better diver than I would be if I had just stayed in the DIR community. That GUE-F course really stuck in my craw though. But, it really was a blessing in disguise. If it wasn't for that I experience, I wouldn't be here to understand how you feel. It also made me work really hard to create the skills that got me the scores you know about in Tech 1. I still don't have a Fundies card though. Should that drive me crazy? I guess I'm okay with GUE Tech 1 instead.

    In high school, I failed Algebra I. I had a teacher who had been a Colonel and professor at West Point until he retired from the Army. He decided to return to teaching in the public school system. On my first exam, I finished my solutions with x = 15 rather than taking the step out to x = 15, 15 = 15. Um ... no kidding! Or, does it? Philosophy courses in college would later question the validity of that. Anyway, I got an "F" on that test despite having an "A" for the actual math solutions. The dude was hard core. When I retook Algebra, I had a teacher who was the exact opposite of anything associated with an Army Colonel. Picture a math nerd with the glasses, comb-over, stripes with plaid, the pocket protector, the nerd uniform, but he was an outstanding man and an outstanding teacher. Kids who would have failed math and who were usually struggling in other courses excelled in his class. He could teach because he cared so passionately about us. He would stay late to help kids that needed it. If they were willing to make an effort, he was willing to give up his free time to help. A failure of a student was a failure for him. If a student didn't care enough to try, that was a failure for him to have motivated the desire to succeed.

    How badly did your instructor want you to pass? Whose failure/provisional was it? Only you and your instructor know the answer to that.

    I ended up in Tech 1 because a friend called and asked me to take the class with him because he wanted to pass. That was faith in me considering I didn't have a GUE-F card.

    In due time, you may find yourself back in GUE Cave 2. Right now, there may be other lessons to be learned that will be invaluable later. When you are ready, when money is ready, when you are with the right team at the right time, the door will open again and you'll walk into class better for having not completed it the first time and emerge with lessons you may have missed the first time. That day may be around the corner or years in the future. Just believe in yourself.

    "Don't say, 'No,' to yourself. There will always be others who will try to say, 'No,' for you." - Jim Bowden (Non-DIR deep cave explorer for Nadwidny.)
     
  4. rjack321

    rjack321 ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Port Orchard, Washington State
    11,186
    5,928

    With a nod to Cerich, sometimes when someone says no you should listen even harder.
     
  5. nadwidny

    nadwidny Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: I just don't log dives
    Location: Cranbrook, BC
    1,908
    529
    I believe that's pronounced "Batman".
     
  6. Meng_Tze

    Meng_Tze Homo Bonae Voluntatis ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: 246 Bubbleless Cove
    2,309
    7
    We all fail eventually. Failure is part of live and part of learning. Better to accustom yourself with that in a (safe/confined) training environment. Experiencing a specific failure for the first time in a real life environment only adds to confusion, fear and panic. Not quantities you want to have trying to fix that failure. Minimizing that situation upfront, adds to mental strength and insight.
     
  7. Peter Guy

    Peter Guy Divemaster

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Olympia, WA
    4,296
    1,911
    Disagree.

    While we all MAY fail eventually, unless, and until the gods decide, there may not, will not, be any failure. Nor, of course, are we smart enough to contemplate all the various ways in which we might "fail" and so we are unable to practice for every type of failure -- which means that, in fact, we WILL be "Experiencing a specific failure for the first time in a real life environment..." and we can only hope that our general training has prepared us to cope with some specific failure/incident.

    HOWEVER -- back to one of the original questions, What SPECIFIC FAILURES have you, as a technical diver, actually faced -- and bonus question, how did your scenario based training match up with what actually happened?

    Me -- broke my light cord -- scenario based training had specifically dealt with failed light -- stopped, switched to back-up light -- signaled team and called the dive and exited cave. Scenario based training was spot on.
     
  8. RJP

    RJP Scuba Media & Publications

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: New Jersey
    13,460
    6,055
    +1... in theory


    However, that's not much in terms of "a failure" all things considered. Further, you really needed no tech/cave training - scenario based or otherwise - since the solution you employed was/is "specifically dealt with" in the "training" for AOW's Night Dive, which can be "trained" as early as logged dive #6:

    - switch to backup light
    - end dive
    - return to exit point
     
  9. gitterdun

    gitterdun DIR Practitioner

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Orleans, Ont Canada
    1,007
    47
    Well, I wasn't going to bring it up... but.. the excrement can hit the fan...

    It happened to a friend of ours ~ 3 failures at once... and it didn't end well.

    Now, I am not for stressing students out, insulting them, or "overworking" them, but I like the fact that I have had training for more than one failure at a time. If it never happens, that's great. But I don't mind being prepared for it, either.

    That being said... you can have training out your ears, and "stuff" can still end badly, which was the case in this incident.
     
  10. BCSGratefulDiver

    BCSGratefulDiver Mental toss flycoon ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: On the Fun Side of Trump's Wall
    80,689
    69,695
    I think you've heard this story before ... it happened on the final dive of a class, in fact.

    We're on a wreck ... but not on the deck we thought we were on. Entered a corridor that had strings of rust dangling down off the ceiling. #1 guy apparently doesn't notice, he keeps going. I'm #2. His bubbles hit the rust strings and, within seconds, vis goes to zero. Unfortunately, #1 guy doesn't look back ... he just keeps going. I've got the line, trying to get his attention in a complete "rust-out". Long story short, we should've turned back long before we did. Instructor wasn't a happy diver. His first post-dive question ... "What were you guys THINKING?" My answer ... "Cool! This is what we trained for."

    Wrong answer ... but we did, in fact, follow our training (to some degree) and respond in a way that got us out safely and without undue concern (on our part, at least ... I think the instructor got some gray hairs out of it). Now, I know we should've done it better, and we made a few judgment errors that we're not likely to make again. But I also now know what a total siltout inside a wreck "feels" like, and without the benefit of a blackout mask and a "safety net".

    ... Bob (Grateful Diver)
     

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