WHAT!! you didn't buy from me!!!!!

[redacted]

King Kong Matt once bubbled...

Again, while I think price differential is a factor, it's not the only factor (as I have stated above)...in my mind, the LDS can become more customer focused...can evolve, without focusing 100% of its energy on customers it will ALWAYS lose to online sales anyways.

Seems to me that the LDS has an inherent advantage over the online seller in terms of wholesale cost (if they buy in quantity). And although many manufacturers have minimum price constraints which cause a "list price" differential in favor of the online dealer, the LDS can offer a package rounded out with service items like air that can compete with online prices.

 

[Genesis]

the problem is, they don't want to.

The typical LDS attitude seems to be that the price controls are a thing for them to hide behind, not a thing to be worked around to remain competitive even in their face.

The typical "air card" here gets you a buck or two off a Nitrox fill, and a buck or less off an air fill. Not all that material, and in many cases with the shops you can't "fill and go" (only one banks air and Nitrox), and the convenience factor gets to be a problem as well.

The support of those price controls (and make no mistake about it, any shop that agrees to such a thing, tacitely or otherwise, DOES support it) is a problem all on its own, and puts the shop in the unenviable position of immediately declaring their interests as 100% contrary to yours as a customer.

This might be ok with something that you buy and forget about, like a car stereo. After all, how much of a "relationship" do you have with the guy who puts a radio and speakers in your truck? Not much, I'd guess.

But with a dive shop?

I don't see it that way.

Indeed, that should be a relationship. But that relationship starts with showing me that the knife has two edges and that there is a return on investment for me to pay those prices. It is FAR more than just offering product and collecting money.

I've yet to see the shop that TRULY provides the value-add that SHOULD come with a product being sold at nearly DOUBLE what I can buy it for elsewhere.

Can you make the value equation work as a shop?

Yes.

Have I seen a shop that does?

No.

Would I patronize one that does?

Yep.

The proof is THEIRS to produce, not mine to seek.

 

[King Kong Matt]

Genesis once bubbled...
The typical LDS attitude seems to be...

Would you at least agree that "typical" as you describe it is, in reality, typical for you? Based on other responses in this thread, it would seem that some people have found that balance in their relationship with their LDS.

I don't doubt that you haven't found such an LDS, but I fail to see how we should generalize that experience into "typical".

 

[yknot]

I hope more people patronize the online dealers so they can remain in business. I dive with some folks from a particular LDS that when we discuss shop prices vs online still seem to find ways to justify paying a 50% (or more) premium. We've all heard the logic: "They take back anything with a problem, no questions asked" or "I couldn't possibly buy item X or Y online". Most people, and unfortunatly this includes some scuba divers are essentially lazy and/or stupid. It takes effort to buy online: have to research multiple brands to determine what you want, have to research multiple internet sites to determine which online dealer to buy from, etc. My fear is that the stupid people who will blindly buy what LDS sells at whatever price will put online dealers out of business and I won't be able to purchase gear half off anymore.

 

[TCDiver1]

This is not a defense of poor LDS business practices, lord knows i've had more than my share of difficulty with them but anyone who thinks they are better off as divers without a health LDS or two near them, are only fooling themselves IMO.

Who wants to drive 100 miles to fill their tank, get instruction or pick up that widget that your forgot you needed until the day your diving? Sure you can buy your own compressor but why would you if there was a more convenient option? Maybe your lucky enough to know a local instructor or two who can give you the ongoing training you desire. Maybe your McGiver and can make any dive widget you ever need on short notice, out of coat hangers and spare parts.

The LDS provides convenient access to diving. Something the online stores will never be able to provide. IMO, it is in your best interest to try to build a good relationship with your LDS. If you like convenience, it only makes sense. If the LDS owners are good business people they will work something out with you to get closer to online pricing. The LDS, in all likelyhood will never meet or beat online pricing because they tend to be lower volume, higher overhead businesses than the online stores.

If the LDS owners are poor business people, such as the store that started this thread, you may have no choice. The point is, it is in your best interest to try and build a relationship, it's worth it if you do. If you always take the hard line that as the customer, you are always right, the LDS must meet online pricing or they won't get my business, you will most likely never experience the convenience a LDS can provide. How do you put a price on convenience?

A little negotiation can provide a ton of convenience if done right.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

Genesis once bubbled...
Indeed, that should be a relationship. But that relationship starts with showing me that the knife has two edges and that there is a return on investment for me to pay those prices. It is FAR more than just offering product and collecting money.

I've yet to see the shop that TRULY provides the value-add that SHOULD come with a product being sold at nearly DOUBLE what I can buy it for elsewhere.

Genesis, this is not an attempt to renew our prior disagreement. However, it seems to me that you have more issues with LDS' than others with whom I've spoken.

How have you looked for a new shop? Did you walk in, make your speech (reprinted in full earlier in the thread) and expect them to fall all over themselves looking for your business.

Essentially, I'm wondering whether you turn people off with an attitude.

In addition, how many shops have you visited?

YKNOT, while it may be true that the people you know are lazy or stupid (which is a topic for another day), it is inaccurate for you to suggest that this is the mainstream. You should, however, consider why these lazy or stupid people are your dive buddies (sounds dangerous to me).

I've made a conscious decision to buy from an LDS. Why, because I am willing to pay for excellent service and I get it.

Examples:

Before I got my blender card, I went in, told them what I needed and waited for it to be filled. Except for high O2 blends, I dont' get charged for the fill.

Since getting my card, I go in, hook up, do the fill and tell the owner what I've done.

The same goes for equipment that is in stock. Take it, write it down and settle out later. Oftentimes, the LDS throws in little items for free.

Many people complain about the prices that their LDS charges for service. What charges? If I buy it at the LDS, service (including parts) is included. Even better, I know that its being done right because they will let me watch and show me how to do it myself (I don't, but that's another issue).

Finally, there is the training. On major purchases, the LDS will provide training as part of the purchase. For example, buy your rig after taking OW and you will be credited the entire cost of the course. Buy a dry suit and you will receive a couple of pool (or ocean, depending on schedules) sessions in which you will be taught (by one of the pro staff) to use it. The same goes for BC's and other equipment.

It is probably true that I'm one of the shop's bigger customers and that I get some perks that other don't (the gas fills, fer sure). However, I challenge anyone to show me an online store that will show up late on a Saturday night to open the shop because you need a piece of equipment for a Sunday dive. Or that lets you use their repair station to service your gear. Or that will stand over you and walk you though whatever procedure you're learning. My LDS has dont that, and more.

There is no question that I pay more than I would if I go to LP or diversdiscount. However, the benefits are worth it because I'm willing to pay for spectacular service and individual attention.

OTOH, I've had miserable luck with online stores. In one memorable instance, it took diversdiscount three weeks to issue a refund on a tank that I had purchased. They didn't see any problem with the fact that the inside of the tank was rusted when it arrived. Having already paid for cross-country shipping in order to return it (which brought the price into the realm of an LDS), I told them to credit my card. Notwithstanding the fact that the tank had never been wet and that they have an unconditional return policy, it took three weeks and several increasingly nasty letters before they acted (they finally resolved it when I reported them to American Express).

The debate over LDS v. Online Store reminds me of the debate between people who shop at Cosco or Home Depot and people who shop at the corner store. You save money at the big stores, but you need to deal with crowds and useless staff who don't know what they are talking about (if you can find them). You pay more at the local shop, but the service is better.

 

[King Kong Matt]

is the out-and-out vitriolic anger some of you feel toward the LDS.

I'm not in your store to make sure you exist tomorrow, because I don't need you. In fact, you need me and others like me...

...the stupid people who will blindly buy what LDS sells...

Seriously, if this is just a cut and dry economic argument in your mind and you can get a better price online, why do you care? Why the massive chip on your shoulders about the local LDS that, according to you, should be out of business next week anyway?

I really do understand the rational part of your arguments as re: price fixing etc. And there are LOTS of poorly run LDS' out there without a doubt...but a few bad apples...

 

[ScubaDan]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...



Examples:

The same goes for equipment that is in stock. Take it, write it down and settle out later. Oftentimes, the LDS throws in little items for free.

Many people complain about the prices that their LDS charges for service. What charges? If I buy it at the LDS, service (including parts) is included. Even better, I know that its being done right because they will let me watch and show me how to do it myself (I don't, but that's another issue).

Finally, there is the training. On major purchases, the LDS will provide training as part of the purchase. For example, buy your rig after taking OW and you will be credited the entire cost of the course. Buy a dry suit and you will receive a couple of pool (or ocean, depending on schedules) sessions in which you will be taught (by one of the pro staff) to use it. The same goes for BC's and other equipment.

It is probably true that I'm one of the shop's bigger customers and that I get some perks that other don't (the gas fills, fer sure). However, I challenge anyone to show me an online store that will show up late on a Saturday night to open the shop because you need a piece of equipment for a Sunday dive. Or that lets you use their repair station to service your gear. Or that will stand over you and walk you though whatever procedure you're learning. My LDS has dont that, and more.

There is no question that I pay more than I would if I go to LP or diversdiscount. However, the benefits are worth it because I'm willing to pay for spectacular service and individual attention.

I would buy more from LDS if we had a LDS that seems as good as yours. I have tried to get deals like you get, but it doesn't work. I haven't once had a bad experience with them but they will not budge on the prices or even give me a discount even though I have bought thousands of dollars from them. No free fills and I always get the "can't do more then 10% on that because of the agreements we have with the manufacture" or " that is already marked down all we can" but they offer nothing to compensate for that, if they did I would be willing to do more business with them. We have 5 LDS in our area and they all are the same, I would love to have a LDS as good as yours!!

 

[Northeastwrecks]

We are indeed lucky and I know it.

I think that there are at least two reasons.

First, there are several low cost competitors in the area. They offer, IMHO, junk equipment and poor training. However, you can buy an OW course for $99.00. My LDS won't go that route, so we need to offer something better for the money.

Second, there is a very good tech shop 40 minutes south. That shop has everything a tekkie could want, including an He bank, excellent TDI instructors and a good relationship with a tech boat. Nothing like a little competition.

Regardless, the LDS has a good sense of value. The owner bends over backwards serving his customers.

 

[Genesis]

is that in many cases there is no negotiation to be had.

I have yet to see the shop that gives you training commensurate with what you bought at no additional cost, where that is an ACTUAL AND REASONABLE mitigation of the purchases you have made.

I have seen plenty of hiding behind the "pricing policy" excuse, but no mitigation.

I think it is perfectly reasonable that if you buy an OW class and during or immediately after it buy a full kit from that dealer, that the OW class should be "free". That actually would make the deal "work" to some extent, for some combination of hardware, and would further make for a mutually-beneficial foundation for a relationship.

Shops that do such things are, from my experience, MYTHS.

There is exactly one "good deal" around here in the local dive shops. That is one shop that sells AL80s for $180 but includes 20 free air (or 10 free Nitrox) fills with it. If you were to buy those fills in the form of one or two air cards (the equivalent) the cost of that tank would be $90. That's a decent deal. I have four of their tanks, natch. In fact, its close enough to a "good deal" that you might be able to buy the tanks, turn around and sell them on eBAY for more than the imputed cost, and use the aircards with your other ones - reducing the price of the fills even more. I actually considered such a tactic, but the overhead was not (just marginally so) worth it.

The problem is that you can't make a loyal customer out of one good deal and 99 gouges in the shop.

There is, for example, the shop in the SE Florida area that sells air cards based on the ACTUAL cubic feet of gas purchased - and further, is about half the price of anything I've seen around here even if you have COMPLETELY empty tanks. Now that's service - and a FAIR price - for what you're buying. Pay for what you ACTUALLY buy. If I lived near them I'd certainly consider patronizing their store. Why? Honest dealing and a fair price, that's why. If that carries over to the rest of their philosophy and the way they run the rest of their shop, we'd get along great.

On the other hand there are shops (like most of them) that rent you a tank for their dive boat, insist on your return to the boat with at least 500 psi in it (or even, in one reported case here, threaten to fine you if you come back up with less than 500 psi in the tank), but charge you for every cubic foot in there - even though you're not allowed to use 1/6th of it! So now you're buying something that you are being explicitly told you can't use (or worse, fined if you DO use it.) Nice, eh?

Show me a DUI dealer, for example, that will eat a drysuit that THEY measured you for but doesn't fit right - and who will put that policy in writing before you place your order. You can't find one. Why? Because DUI's policy is that its not THEIR problem even if their agent does the measuring. And even on stock sizes, you will be hard-pressed to find a dealer with ANY stock. So what ARE you, exactly, paying for when you buy from that "authorized dealer"? NOTHING! They "special order" everything, and YOU eat the risk of mistakes. All of the normal, commercial trade-offs of a retail establishment - real local support, someone to stand behind the product, local stock, and responsibility for it being "right" when delivered - all go away - but the pricing difference DOES NOT! And dealers SIGN these agreements - which makes them complicit in this kind of "customer disservice."

The kind of attitude that the original poster ran into is all too prevalent. "Oh, you didn't buy that here - gee, you're such an evil person." You know what? Merchants with that attitude can bite me. I will give them one shot with "the talk" in an attempt to find SOME kind of meeting of the minds, but that's it. Many others will just walk out, shaking their heads, and never return. I, on the other hand, believe that people do have bad days, and that before you condemn someone for being an evil baztard that you ought to try to get confirmation that you heard them right and that they were not just having a bad morning - or talking out their tails.

I buy not only from the lowest price seller - I have, many times, paid more than the "rock bottom" for superior service and the package. But it is my place to assign value to those intangible items, and it is your place, as a seller, to make those intangibles "real" in the form of actual policies and actual benefits that I can count on being there, so that I can assign a real dollar value to them.

The "you better support your LDS or you won't be able to get fills, nanananana!" trumpeters have taken a different approach. Instead of showing me value, they show me a threat.

That's a really nice way to endear customers to your operation.

NOT!