Who "Fails" Open Water Scuba Certification and why

[boulderjohn]

Yes. What if it is the parent or PADI pro that needs rescuing? Said person dies and kid must forever live with feeling it's their fault for not performing the rescue.

Pretty much the only real rescue that is done by a buddy in scuba is sharing air. What is it that prevents a 10-year old from sharing air?

 

[boulderjohn]

I have a Masters Degree in Business, I clearly remember the University years, the classes and the students, a few did fall by the wayside for one reason or another, the rest were successful, with success having absolutely nothing to do with the ''science'' behind the preparation of the exam.

It's good to know that getting a masters in business taught you all about educational theory, especially assessment.

As for me, in my role teaching educational theory and curriculum theory as well as being the Executive Director of Curriculum for the largest online education company in the world did not give me the kind of training in educational theory that you get in business classes.

 

[lairdb]

Pretty much the only real rescue that is done by a buddy in scuba is sharing air. What is it that prevents a 10-year old from sharing air?

You are an experienced instructor and I am a filthy casual, so please take it as a genuine question: in theory, isn't the ability to haul my semi-conscious body through the surfline to the beach a reasonable expectation for a buddy?

 

[ginti]

Hi John,

Reasons why one student gets an ''A'' and another student gets an ''F'' on the same exam has everything to do with the student and nothing to do with the exam.

I won't tell you that I never got an individual question wrong, I will tell you that I have never failed an exam.

I have a Masters Degree in Business, I clearly remember the University years, the classes and the students, a few did fall by the wayside for one reason or another, the rest were successful, with success having absolutely nothing to do with the ''science'' behind the preparation of the exam.

My life partner, God rest her precious soul, had a Doctorate Degree, Suzie oozed intelligence, by just walking into a room.

Our success, my success, and I'm very successful, has absolutely nothing to do with either bell curves or J-curves, that's a lot of nonsense.

Back on topic, dive students do not fail dive training because of the exams. Herd mentality instructors, who fail to take the time to ensure full student comprehension are just as much to blame for dive student failure as anything else.

My dive instruction has always been one on one, personally, I wouldn't do it any other way.

My eventual plans are CCR, and regardless of the cost, regardless of whether I have to fly an instructor in, or me fly to him/her, it will be one on one. ''My Dime - My Time"

Rose.

I don't think John wanted to say that your success is not your merit; he also never said that his attorney friend is not successful (maybe he is). However, the fact that you haven't met during your life any manipulation doesn't mean that manipulation does not exist.

When I was studying for my master degree, almost all of my professors were not manipulating any data. Same city, different university: they enforce the bell shape described by John on the grades; how do I know? Just a friend studying there. Sure, stories like "a friend of a guy who writes in a scuba diving forum" are not very reliable, but you can quickly make a research on google to verify if this really happens on SOME universities.

My perception is that our achievements do NOT entirely depend on us. Indeed, we only can control our actions, but not the environment around us. The environment has way more power than our actions on our results.

That said, if you arrived where you are for a combination of favourable environment/events/chance AND the actions you pro-actively made, take your credit: you couldn't do more, so you deserve it.

 

[TMHeimer]

You are an experienced instructor and I am a filthy casual, so please take it as a genuine question: in theory, isn't the ability to haul my semi-conscious body through the surfline to the beach a reasonable expectation for a buddy?

You beat me to it. Now, this and other aspects of rescuing gets into the question of why at least major rescue skills aren't included in most agencies' OW course (I've been told NAUI includes some). OW divers are not even required to know CPR. But, back to 10 year olds-- yes, and what about having to tow an adult a longer distance than just through surf. And of course there is the panicked diver, but again, not knowing how to deal with that is not specific to 10 year olds. How about getting an unconscious diver to the surface -- even if not done with the correct rescue course procedure, the 10 year old no doubt is less likely to do it successfully than the adult.

When I took Rescue a small woman in the course was unable to get the "victim" up and out of the pool after the tow. As an adult, she knows she did all that she could. 10 year olds probably wouldn't look at it that way.
To relate all this back to the OP's question-- Does she fail?
No. Because she does have the knowledge of what to do, and we want her to have as many rescue skills as possible. The next time she may be able to get a slightly lighter diver safely to shore. There probably won't be a next time for the 10 year old.

 

[lowwall]

so please take it as a genuine question: in theory, isn't the ability to haul my semi-conscious body through the surfline to the beach a reasonable expectation for a buddy?

No, it is not. Speaking as an ex-lifeguard and lifeguard instructor, rescue is not a trivial skill. It requires specific training that takes at least as long as an entire current open water course. It also requires a much higher minimum level of swimming ability.

What you are missing is that a "semi-conscious body" often turns into a fully conscious and panicked body that is quite capable of drowning or injuring their would be rescuer.

A buddy in rec diving is only responsible for helping to the point where their safety is endangered. Stuff like sharing air, assisting with an entanglement or malfunctioning equipment or calling or going for help. A tired diver assist may be acceptable depending on the circumstances.

If you want more from a buddy, then either pay for someone with that training to accompany you on your dives or go through the appropriate training and only dive with buddies who have gone through the same training and have the same expectations.

 

[boulderjohn]

You are an experienced instructor and I am a filthy casual, so please take it as a genuine question: in theory, isn't the ability to haul my semi-conscious body through the surfline to the beach a reasonable expectation for a buddy?

Most people who are certified would have trouble doing that. So are you saying that the ability to haul a semi-conscious diver through the surf line to the beach should be a minimal requirement for OW certification?

 

[wheeledgoat]

You do realize that 10-year olds can get certified, don't you? That means the course is essentially written and taught at the 5th grade level.

I can understand why you are not bragging about easily passing a 5th grade level class. That might be something a 9th grader might do.

If you are proposing that the class should be made more difficult, can you explain why that would be a benefit? If the 5th grade level is appropriate for the class, then the only benefit to making it more difficult would be to make people like you feel better about having gotten certified. If they cranked it up to, say, the 7th grade level, would that make you feel better?

Damn bud - who pissed in your cornflakes? Yes, I realize that 10 year olds can get certified. I disagree, however, that that fact requires instructors to limit everyone's education and skills to that level. I do not propose "more difficult". I propose teaching to the level of your students. I think most experienced educators are familiar with the concept.

Also, if you think the gas laws and partial pressure concepts in the nitrox course are understood by 10 year olds, I've got a bridge in Arizona for sale.

 

[TMHeimer]

Most people who are certified would have trouble doing that. So are you saying that the ability to haul a semi-conscious diver through the surf line to the beach should be a minimal requirement for OW certification?

I do. Or at least having the knowledge of how such rescues are done should be required. Perhaps a more reasonable requirement may be at least how to give inwater rescue breaths while towing to safety-- not necessarily even through rough surf exits. And how to deal with a panicked diver at the surface. But, many disagree with me, I admit.

 

[TMHeimer]

Damn bud - who pissed in your cornflakes? Yes, I realize that 10 year olds can get certified. I disagree, however, that that fact requires instructors to limit everyone's education and skills to that level. I do not propose "more difficult". I propose teaching to the level of your students. I think most experienced educators are familiar with the concept.

Also, if you think the gas laws and partial pressure concepts in the nitrox course are understood by 10 year olds, I've got a bridge in Arizona for sale.

Some 10 year olds may very well be capable of understanding gas laws and all the academics of the OW course (I don't think partial pressures are included in the OW material--don't quote me, it's been a while). The problem I always have had with 10+ year olds (11,12, 13, etc.--maybe 14) is how mentally qnd emotionally equipped they may be when a true emergency occurs.
Quite a few on SB have said their 10 year old was able to whiz though the academics and ace the written test.
In trying to think back, I feel I was PROBABLY ready to tackle all of it at age 15, which is the age for full PADI OW cert. Some have said they feel teenage boys even 16-20 or beyond are less able to deal with panic situations than 10 year olds. I have disagreed with that.