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No, it is not. Speaking as an ex-lifeguard and lifeguard instructor, rescue is not a trivial skill. It requires specific training that takes at least as long as an entire current open water course. It also requires a much higher minimum level of swimming ability.

What you are missing is that a "semi-conscious body" often turns into a fully conscious and panicked body that is quite capable of drowning or injuring their would be rescuer.

A buddy in rec diving is only responsible for helping to the point where their safety is endangered. Stuff like sharing air, assisting with an entanglement or malfunctioning equipment or calling or going for help. A tired diver assist may be acceptable depending on the circumstances.

I'll consider this perspective; thank you -- having dealt with panicked victims I do get it. I believe just entering the water with a buddy voluntarily assumes a measure of risk, including risk from the buddy -- how many here have a story of a buddy seizing their primary reg unexpectedly?

Most people who are certified would have trouble doing that. So are you saying that the ability to haul a semi-conscious diver through the surf line to the beach should be a minimal requirement for OW certification?

I'm not sure it's that far from tired diver assist to towing them through mild shore conditions. That said, I'd hesitate to make it a baseline, though I might choose that as a personal buddy-choosing boundary -- or at least a factor. TMHeimer, though, seems to say "yes":

I do. Or at least having the knowledge of how such rescues are done should be required. Perhaps a more reasonable requirement may be at least how to give inwater rescue breaths while towing to safety-- not necessarily even through rough surf exits. And how to deal with a panicked diver at the surface. But, many disagree with me, I admit.

Rescue breaths is more than I'd expect of OW. Maybe more than I'd expect of AOW. Tired diver tow is OW for sure. (I'm sure I'm weirdly calibrated, though -- when I did OW it included "bubble mask" and "breathing directly from the tank valve" as skills, and I suspect neither of those are in the Standards.)
 
I do. Or at least having the knowledge of how such rescues are done should be required. Perhaps a more reasonable requirement may be at least how to give inwater rescue breaths while towing to safety-- not necessarily even through rough surf exits. And how to deal with a panicked diver at the surface. But, many disagree with me, I admit.
Almost all of the time spent in scuba training is dealing with things that go wrong. Over decades, agencies have tried to determine what is likely to go wrong so that students can be prepared for it. They don't prepare students for everything, though. For example, there is no training on how to fend off a saltwater crocodile attack. There is no training for being extracted from a high wave storm by a Coast Guard helicopter. That is because the risk for those things is too small to be considered worth the time it would take to teach it. In that regard, let's look at carrying a semi-unconscious body through a surf line with no one else there to help. I wonder how often that has happened--I can't imagine it has occurred more than a few times in world history. The scenario of bringing in an unconscious diver on the surface, giving rescue breaths as you go, while removing the victim's equipment and yours is part of the Rescue class, but in most agencies, not at the OW level. That is not just because the need to do that is so very, very rare (and it is), but also because it is even more rarely successful. This discussion comes up nearly annually over the years I have been on ScubaBoard, and I regularly ask people to present an example of a successful rescue using that procedure. No one has done it. Oh, people will always give me an example of someone who was rescued through another process, but I have never seen an example of a successful rescue using that process.

The reason many skills like those are not part of the OW class is related to two concepts: 1) Interference theory and 2) Just in time instruction.

Interference Theory: In curriculum design, the goal is to have students know the essential material well in the class, and one of the things that interferes with learning is interference. To be brief, time spent learning things you don't need to know interferes with the ability to learn what you do need to know. Ironically, teaching fewer topics can result in students learning more material.

Just in Time instruction: This is actually a form of interference. "Just in time" instruction contrasts with "Just in case" instruction. In "Just in case" instruction, students are taught concepts and skills just in case they might need it. That is pretty much what constitutes all OW content. Students may encounter an OOA incident, and they need to be ready in case that happens. "Just in time" instruction is content that is not likely to be encountered without enough warning to give time to prepare. For example, I had logged over 800 dives before I did my first dive in a location where I had to plan for tides, and I got instruction on local tide conditions before planning the dives. I had probably 1,000 dives before I did a shore dive in a location with a heavy surf line. Again, I had time to prepare for the knowledge I needed. Things like that are not part of my OW instruction, because students are likely to forget it all if and when they ever need it, and time spent on it interferes with their ability to learn the critical scuba skills. In contrast, all the local students in Colorado dive at altitude, so altitude considerations for their dives becomes part of the OW class. Students shore diving in California will find surf entries and tides in their OW class.
 
I don't think John wanted to say that your success is not your merit; he also never said that his attorney friend is not successful (maybe he is). However, the fact that you haven't met during your life any manipulation doesn't mean that manipulation does not exist.

When I was studying for my master degree, almost all of my professors were not manipulating any data. Same city, different university: they enforce the bell shape described by John on the grades; how do I know? Just a friend studying there. Sure, stories like "a friend of a guy who writes in a scuba diving forum" are not very reliable, but you can quickly make a research on google to verify if this really happens on SOME universities.

My perception is that our achievements do NOT entirely depend on us. Indeed, we only can control our actions, but not the environment around us. The environment has way more power than our actions on our results.

That said, if you arrived where you are for a combination of favourable environment/events/chance AND the actions you pro-actively made, take your credit: you couldn't do more, so you deserve it.

Hello G,

I can assure of one thing, ''chance/serendipity'' was not a factor.

I'm not sure I understand ''data manipulation'', that term sounds to me like trickery/slight of hand/magic, none of which were a factor either.

Best,

Rose.
 
You are an experienced instructor and I am a filthy casual, so please take it as a genuine question: in theory, isn't the ability to haul my semi-conscious body through the surfline to the beach a reasonable expectation for a buddy?

OW divers are taught to look after themselves and to share air when requested to do so.

Especially for newly certified OW divers, their awareness of anything outside of the tiny bit of space they occupy is usually pretty dim. I wouldn't expect any new OW diver to perform any skill not taught in the OW class.

According to the terms of the junior OW certification, at least for PADI, 10-year-old divers can dive only when accompanied by one of their parents or by a divemaster.

Parents should evaluate their own skills, assess the skills and maturity of their children, and choose dives and dive groups where they can dive safely together with their offspring. In my experience, parents take this responsibility seriously. When newly certified parents and their newly certified pre-teen children dive from the boats I work on, the parents readily acknowledge their limitations and stick close to me or another DM. The only parent-child teams that go off by themselves involve parents with a lot experience.
 
Also, if you think the gas laws and partial pressure concepts in the nitrox course are understood by 10 year olds, I've got a bridge in Arizona for sale.

Minimum age for PADI's enriched air course is 12.

And that doesn't mean any 12 year old can take it. It's going to be a 12 year old who can already dive and who has an interested, present, engaged parent.
 
Here is an example of how data manipulation in education.

The principal of a school decided to require that the physical education department should have tests for the content matter in the subject they were teaching, and that all the teachers would use the same test. Two teachers were teaching a volleyball unit, and they created a multiple choice test on rules, strategies, etc. One teacher worked her tail off teaching those things to the students, and the other frankly barely taught them at all. When she graded her tests, she was pleased with how her students had done. Then she saw the grades for the other teacher, and she was blown away by how much better they had done. When she checked, she found that he had curved the grades. In terms of raw score, none of the students had passed; in fact, the students who did best did not do much better than the law of averages. So he had curved the grades so that he got a good number of top scores and pretty much no failures.

Believe me, as a life-long educator, I assure you this sort of thing goes on all the time.
 
OW divers are taught to look after themselves and to share air when requested to do so.

Especially for newly certified OW divers, their awareness of anything outside of the tiny bit of space they occupy is usually pretty dim. I wouldn't expect any new OW diver to perform any skill not taught in the OW class.

But I think what we're discussing (for probably the 99,000th time on SB) is whether more should be taught in the OW class to receive an OW card. There's quite a few OW out there who IMO aren't (to use the ISO term) an Autonomous Diver.

According to the terms of the junior OW certification, at least for PADI, 10-year-old divers can dive only when accompanied by one of their parents or by a divemaster.

TBF, when this took off, I was relying on someone else's statement that a 10 year old is eligible for an OW -- at the time I didn't see that PADI has a "junior OW."
 
Gas laws are not taught per se in recreational classes. In OW classes, students are taught how pressure changes with depth, and they should know that volume of a bubble at 99 FSW is 1/4 of what it was at the surface, but they are not taught the term "Boyle's Law." Knowing the names Boyle's Law, Dalton's Law, Charles' Law, and Henry's Law is not necessary to understand how scuba works.
 
Here is an example of how data manipulation in education.

The principal of a school decided to require that the physical education department should have tests for the content matter in the subject they were teaching, and that all the teachers would use the same test. Two teachers were teaching a volleyball unit, and they created a multiple choice test on rules, strategies, etc. One teacher worked her tail off teaching those things to the students, and the other frankly barely taught them at all. When she graded her tests, she was pleased with how her students had done. Then she saw the grades for the other teacher, and she was blown away by how much better they had done. When she checked, she found that he had curved the grades. In terms of raw score, none of the students had passed; in fact, the students who did best did not do much better than the law of averages. So he had curved the grades so that he got a good number of top scores and pretty much no failures.

Believe me, as a life-long educator, I assure you this sort of thing goes on all the time.

BJ,

I think someone in authority in your region needs to fire some teaches.

What you call manipulation, I call teachers cheating the students out of an education and a successful life.

I am a lifelong educator as well, and as an educator, by cheating the people I am educating, I am not only cheating them, I am cheating myself.

All ''students'' under my tutelage, are not only my students, they are my employees, and where would I be if it was ''garbage in and garbage out''.

I'm more of a fan of win/win success. My success is based on the success of my students/employees.

And, we excel in success!

Rose.
 
Hello G,

I can assure of one thing, ''chance/serendipity'' was not a factor.

The following examples are a bit extreme, but I believe they are clear.

In 1990 roughly 40% of the global population was in extreme poverty, and before it was even worse. Being born in a developed country or from a family who could provide for you, is chance. Maybe you were unlucky enough to be born in a very poor family in a third wolrd country, but still a person like you, with the same abilities and personality, might not survive her 5th birthday if born in a warzone, and could do almost nothing to completely avoid it (best you can do in such situation is to minimize risks, not to avoid them).

Chance is a factor for everybody, for you as well.

I'm not sure I understand ''data manipulation'', that term sounds to me like trickery/slight of hand/magic, none of which were a factor either.

BJ,

I think someone in authority in your region needs to fire some teaches.

What you call manipulation, I call teachers cheating the students out of an education and a successful life.

I am a lifelong educator as well, and as an educator, by cheating the people I am educating, I am not only cheating them, I am cheating myself.

All ''students'' under my tutelage, are not only my students, they are my employees, and where would I be if it was ''garbage in and garbage out''.

I'm more of a fan of win/win success. My success is based on the success of my students/employees.

And, we excel in success!

Rose.

It's notthing trickery/slight of hand/magic, and the way it was described to me (both by John and my friend) is purely mathematical.

You first check how many students you need to fail, and how many you want to have the maximum grade. Then you shift all the other grades (usually towards lower grades).

Also, it is legal and transparent, at least in Italy. They do it to increase competition between students.

EDIT: if I remember well, in the italian university I mentioned the "manipulation" is enforced by the university, not by professors. However, I need to double check it :)
 
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