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Who Wants Better Fins?

Discussion in 'Research & Development' started by TECreation, Oct 19, 2017.

What are the top 3 requirements for a great swim fin?

  1. Low price

  2. Low ankle stress

  3. Low effort

  4. Low leg stress

  5. Hign top speed

  6. Durability

  7. Ability to back up

  8. Frog kick ability

  9. Power

  10. Maneuverability

Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. TECreation

    TECreation ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Orlando FL
    Everyone knows the purpose of diving is not to see how much ground they can cover or to see who can get there first. For recreational divers it is mostly to coast along and seek out new and interesting life on the reef. For commercial divers there is often a lot of hard work involved which requires power or speed for short and, sometimes, long periods of time.

    I would venture to say everyone on this board has a story about how they got downcurrent of their destination and nearly killed themselves getting back or did not get back. I have heard so many stories about split fins and how they are detested by so many because they simply do not have any speed capability. Why would a diver not want to have a high speed option their fins if it did not hamper the other aspects of performance? It's insurance.

    So far your votes say the most import item for fins are Power and Maneuverability tie for the most important features. That is followed by Frog Kicking then Durability. So why is it that the vote is contrary to the text being posted? In the last year I have presented the MaxAir fins to dozens of divers and most of the tech divers want to know about the power of the fins because they carry so much gear. That is why the tug of war was done. Any diver worth their salt has been able to take these fins and dive just like they used to and maneuver with ease in minutes.

    Frog kicking is a stroke created to mitigate a problem caused by inefficient fins. The classic paddle fins (including Rocket, Jet, Turbo, Turtle, etc) are hydrodynamically boards on your foot and create horrible turbulence causing divers to have to raise them as far as possible from the bottom. The MaxAir has way less wake and allows much closer classic kicking so the need for frog kicking is nearly eliminated. That being said they still frog kick wonderfully but it is a modified frog kick due to the fact they connect with the water differently. Divers who choose to pretend they are swimming with boards and frog kick that way will be disappointed with these. More open minded divers who recognized the difference in how they work and adjust to the simpler frog kick have found they actually provide better, faster, and more powerful frog kicking with less effort and contortion. In short, once they are dialed in they absolute love them. I would love to take some time with any frog kicking expert to learn how it is done with the old boards and have them learn how it can be done with some real technology then video the whole thing so everyone can see the difference.

    On the durability issue all I can say is these are prototypes and not made from the final production materials or production technique which will make them much stronger and durable but one pair of the most recent version has been on 60 dives and is still going strong. I fully expect these fins to last as long as any other fin on the market.

    This is getting kinda long and late so I will pick up on reply's tomorrow.
  2. Spinal33

    Spinal33 Divemaster Candidate

    Interesting points - but as a tech diver (and instructor), power is pretty low on my priority list. If I need to carry more gear, I repeat, I'll use a DPV.

    Though you make the bold assertion that these fins negate the need to frog kick - as I'm halfway around the planet, it's unlikely I can try your fins before buying them. Are you able to post a video of someone diving over a silty bottom, rather than heavy sand? We dive in lakes and quarries here, sand is a dream for us. Kicking up sand means it settles within seconds (or sometimes minutes), silt on the other hand, takes days.

    As for durability - 60 dives is pretty low and I would expect them to be practically new. Can I suggest you get a few sets of fins out to a dive school (again, I'm halfway around the planet so not a good bet) - and get them to put them through their paces. Nothing tests equipment like students who don't care if they damage/break/lose gear... You'll see pretty quickly if the students/staff prefer your fins, or one of the others... and that's coming from someone that uses the mares quattro fins for teaching as they are just unbreakable.

    I'm all for disruptive innovation - but I need it to be proved. I still have a pair of slingshot fins as I liked them when I tried them. They're not bad, but they suck at frog kicks in anything except the stiffest setting.

  3. RayfromTX

    RayfromTX Student Of Gas Mixology Staff Member ScubaBoard Sponsor

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Cozumel while the cruise ships are gone
    OK, I was sold and was going to ask how much they are and how can I get a pair and then you posted this.

    "I fully expect these fins to last as long as any other fin on the market." really?

    OK now I'll ask this, How much are they, where can I get a pair, how are they sized and what is their warranty?
    What happens when the moving parts start to get sticky after say two short years? Will you repair or replace them?
    Last question is, do you have any video where someone gets them to effectively propel them backwards?
  4. kelemvor

    kelemvor Big Fleshy Monster ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Largo, FL USA
    Are there shops in the Tampa, Florida area with demo units available for divers to try?
  5. Scott

    Scott Technical Instructor

    # of Dives: 2,500 - 4,999
    Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
    Her buoyancy and trim were not what I was referring to.
    Your video identified certain kicks. None of those were effectively demonstrated

    No problem, send me a a flight voucher or a pair of fins.
    whysocold likes this.
  6. TECreation

    TECreation ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Orlando FL
    You nailed it. That is why I am here. I am looking for those reputable 3rd party reviewers. These fins have been in development for nearly 10 years and have come a long way. They were built from the ground up to be easy on the diver and consume little energy. The only concession to "old time" fins was the need for one on each foot.

    I realize these are substantially different from what most folks are used to but then again they laughed at the Wright Brothers. It is time we moved into the 21st century.
    chillyinCanada and undrwater like this.
  7. TECreation

    TECreation ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Orlando FL
    No. Most fin manufacturers have spent millions of dollars developing their fins. I am a single person investing my own nest-egg in this project so although I have built over 100 prototypes there are only 5 available for testing at this time. I am in Orlando and have the ability to travel reasonable distances to you. Tampa is certainly reasonable. In fact I will be there this Thursday 10/26. Do you want to dive? Contact me directly to make arrangements.

    I am in the process of a redesign which will allow me to create about 50 pairs of fins in various sizes. When that is done I will arrange dive weeks in the Florida area where a dive boat will be loaded with fins for everyone to try. Email notifications will be sent from my website www.MaxAirFin.com to those who sign up for our email updates. You can also review the science and testing process and watch the reviews from complete strangers there.
    RainPilot and undrwater like this.
  8. TECreation

    TECreation ScubaBoard Supporter ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Orlando FL
    That is precisely why I would love to send you a pair for testing. The only people who don't like the MaxAir are those who have not tried them. Would it not be a reputable review if a total naysayer changed their tune? I would only ask that you be objective and get good video.
  9. northernone

    northernone Contributor Rest in Peace ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Currently: Cozumel, from Canada
    I've reread your patent, your posts and watched the videos. It may be a good product and suitable for some divers and their needs. From a marketing standpoint, the posts begin to sound like they are good for every diver for nearly every style of diving and are superior to all other fins. The videos do not show this. Particularly the backfinning clip. In the video it appears: 1. They are difficult to use. Or 2. They don't work effectively or 3. The person demonstrating them didn't have the skill set needed. She's an experienced diver by your own commendation. My conclusions aren't able to be drawn without a pair on my feet or on those of someone I know and respect. Your marketing claims are too fantastic with too little demonstrated at this point. I can see their value for fast straight finning, but as you mentioned that's only one of many factors that have us choose to invest in fins.

    I love innovation and the obvious passion you're put into bringing this to market. I caution your tone in putting down our current favorite fins though. Compelling evidence does more than self praise for building a fan base.


    P.s. if you have a stronger version available and I like them, I'm willing to put 300hrs testing on a pair this winter.
    RainPilot likes this.
  10. sbijou

    sbijou Contributor

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Ft. Lauderdale
    Sam Miller III and northernone like this.

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