• Welcome to ScubaBoard


  1. Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

    Benefits of registering include

    • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
    • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
    • You can make this box go away

    Joining is quick and easy. Login or Register now by clicking on the button

Why No Fundies for DIR Agnostics

Discussion in 'Basic Scuba' started by Ripple in still water, May 12, 2011.

  1. ScubaFeenD

    ScubaFeenD Contributor

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Baltimore, MD
    1,573
    97
    It looks like the OP is on the east coast. Since there is almost no presence of UTD here, their best bet might be to meet up with a GUE instructor and maybe just audit a day of primer class (instructor permitting) to see if it is for them. The primer with borrowed gear is also a great idea.
     
  2. vondo

    vondo Contributor

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Aurora, IL
    996
    32
    Precision Diving - Introduction to Technical Diving in Chicago and the Great Lakes Area is the class I took (TDI). I don't know to what extent the gear config is up to the instructor, but you were allowed to take it in a regular BCD. The only gear change I had to make was to the hoses (and I haven't gone back). This is probably "DIR-F lite" but it was a very good course.

    I did use a BP/W but I don't see any fundamental problem taking it in a jacket BCD.
     
  3. Teamcasa

    Teamcasa Sr. Moderator ScubaBoard Supporter

    # of Dives: 500 - 999
    Location: Near Pasadena, CA
    12,121
    442
    Any additional training is going to improve your skills. I would encourage anyone to continue to take some sort of additional training even if they only plan to dive in warm water locales and have no interest in moving on to technical diving.

    That said, I gave up long ago worrying about what gear any particular diver straps to their back. However, I do know that gear selection is no substitute for training and experience. In addition, gear selection has it's appropriate use and requirements based on the dive environment. IE: long hose - required for cave and wreck penetration, optional in open water.

    The bottom line is that better training makes for a better, safer diver.
     
    MauiScubaSteve likes this.
  4. gsk3

    gsk3 Contributor

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: PA, USA
    1,060
    111
    No prob. There are obviously downsides to used stuff, but in general high quality gear in good shape is totally fine. And it's modular, so while there are some advantages to using a Halcyon plate with a Halcyon wing or DSS plate with DSS wing, they're more in the category of nice-to-have rather than must-have. I think I bought my DR AL plate for $35 used in like-new condition, so the savings can be considerable. Harness is $1/ft or less, and you need 3 d-rings and tri-glides ($1 each?), plus a crotch strap ($20, less if you build your own from d-rings and webbing).

    Wings are a little harder to cheap out on, since the shape matters a ton.
     
  5. Peter Guy

    Peter Guy Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Olympia, WA
    4,296
    1,911
    OP -- most people say "It is the instructor, not the agency" that makes the difference -- and, in general, that is true.

    What is it you want to learn? Once you decide what the answer to that question, perhaps all you'll need to do is find an instructor who will teach it to you -- one who has the skills you want and the knowledge and experience to be able to transfer that knowledge to you. In other words, don't look for a class -- look for someone who can teach you and then go take "diving lessons."

    The more I do this the more I'm convinced we are way too hung up on "classes" rather than "learning."

    -----

    Re vertical vs. horizontal ascents -- IF one is in a wet suit, pretty much, so what? OTOH, if one is diving dry, there is a huge difference between trying to ascend vertically as opposed to horizontally due to the venting of the suit. A longer (not necessary 84 inch) hose makes air sharing horizontal (neutral/slightly buoyant) ascents MUCH easier.

    Re gear and the "GUE Way" -- WAY too much is made of the gear issues and the "integrated nature of the parts" of Fundamentals IMHO. Yes, the "GUE Way" is an integrated system but one can learn an awful lot by just learning some of the pieces -- or learning them piecemeal. You do NOT need "tech gear" to learn non-silting kicks (although one might need paddle fins!); you do not need to learn non-silting kicks to learn gas management or minimum deco strategies; you do not need to learn any of those things to begin to understand situational awareness; and on and on. Don't be put off on learning something just because you won't be able to learn everything.
     
    Teamcasa likes this.
  6. vondo

    vondo Contributor

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Aurora, IL
    996
    32
    Very well said.
     
  7. tddfleming

    tddfleming Contributor

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: Boca Raton, FL
    822
    128
    Peter:

    As much as I might agree with you, there are just some of us that are not that lucky to just happen upon a good diver to learn from. Most of the ones I see at the quarry are NOT what I want to look like. So in this case, I need to take classes to learn from someone that I would like to look like one day. If I want to look like Superman UW then I need to find someone that knows how to do that and willing to teach me. unfortunately, there are not too many Superman looking people at our local quarry. However, if I wanted to swim in a verticle position, than we have that covered:) Even some of the guys that claim to do wreck diving, I have questions as to the training they did or did not get for overhead. Hearing them and seeing them are not jiving together, something is amiss for me.
     
  8. gsk3

    gsk3 Contributor

    # of Dives: 100 - 199
    Location: PA, USA
    1,060
    111
    Hi Peter,

    I think knowing what you want to learn is half the battle. If you had said to me pre-Fundies that I needed a back kick, I'd have said it was just a gimmick. Yet without a back kick, holding mid-water ascents in some reasonable relation to your team members is nearly impossible. The same holds true from some of the equipment issues (such as the vastly under-appreciated crotch strap, without which tanks to not stay where they are supposed to!), and many of the intangibles. My trim/buoyancy were within standards going into Fundies, and I expected that I was taking the class to polish them further. Instead, the value of Fundies for me was almost entirely in team skills--something I didn't even know I wanted beforehand.

    So yes, I agree that integratedness is over-rated, and that classes are an artificial distinction foisted upon us by agencies which have to structure things somehow or another. But no, I don't think the holistic picture is over-played at all. It really does all fit together, and many of the intangibles like team skills are more important than the more visible skills which cause people to want to take the class.

    And, there really are advantages to doing things the way those with vastly more experience than I have have found to be good. When I first tried on an AL40 stage (necessary in NE boat charters to avoid having to lug two sets of doubles on a cramped boat), I expected it to take several dives to get sorted out, based on stories my OW instructor and others had told me about having to reconfigure their gear to make the stage fit and not obstruct other things. Instead, I was comfortable with it as soon as I put it on. I remember thinking, "Oh, that's what's supposed to go there"--the configuration was set up for more advanced diving, even though I'd begun the learning process with no intention of ever using a stage. Similarly, I expect when I finally get around to scootering, I'll not have to change anything. So the integratedness of it all can really help.
     
  9. Peter Guy

    Peter Guy Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Olympia, WA
    4,296
    1,911
    OP and gsk -- OP -- back to your original point -- I don't know of any PADI classes (other than Cavern) that will teach you those things either in any sort of integrated manner -- UNLESS you happen to have an instructor who wants to teach that way. It can be done within the PADI system (for example, while doing AOW) but it takes some thought, planning and determination.

    I took a pre-UTD "Essentials of DIR" class long before I took Fundies and I took Essentials BECAUSE I could do it in the gear I had (with the exception of a "longer" - 40" - primary hose and paddle fins). I thought then, and continue to think today, this is a very good option and believe GUE should do something of this nature (and perhaps the Primer does do this -- I don't know).

    The issue of not having the "right instructor" in your territory is a problem whether in Scuba, Skiing or (my other sport) Dressage. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and go to where the training is OR bring the training to you. THAT depends on how badly you want the training.

    gsk -- Yes, the "holistic nature" of the "DIR System" exists -- but just because you can't get the whole enchilada doesn't mean you can't eat anything! Sometimes having some is better than having none.
     
  10. Rhone Man

    Rhone Man Instructor, Scuba

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: British Virgin Islands
    11,299
    10,730
    I think the problem is availability for the consumers, and economics for the providers.

    I'd love a chance to take the class one day, but I don't see it ever happening.
     

Share This Page