Woman drowns during training - Hidden Paradise Campground, Indiana

[boulderjohn]

But now we have not only was it weighted but an exact figure, i.e. weighted with 38lbs. So again I ask, is this a known fact or just a very speculative assumption?

Or do you "wmperry" know the insructor personally and know that's what he used for weights, or.............?

I would like to see a clear answer to Kay Dee's question. When I look at the quotes below, they read to me like speculation. If so, that needs to be made clear. One of the traditions of this forum is that speculation be clearly labeled as such. Let's look at this sentence in particular:

"Instructor gave her his BCD without adjusting the weighting (he's a big dude, she was a normal sized woman). Leading to drastic overweighting, panic, and this poor woman drowning while her family watched from shore."

"This time of year that instructor was probably in a drysuit, and he is a big dude. The 38+ pounds of weight he had in his BCD could very well have been more than a small woman in a wetsuit could keep at the surface."​

These read like statements of fact coming from someone with inside information. IMO, the writer intended sentences like these:

"If we assume that the Instructor gave her his BCD without adjusting the weighting, and if we assume that he's a big dude, she was a normal sized woman, then this might have led to drastic overweighting...."

"It is possible that instructor was ... in a drysuit, and he could be a big dude. Such a person could potentially have as much as 38+ pounds of weight ... in his BCD, which could very well have been more than a small woman in a wetsuit could keep at the surface."​

I think we need an explanation from @wmperry of what he was intending.

It reads like there was something wrong with her gear, not just an inability to get down. Instructor gave her his BCD without adjusting the weighting (he's a big dude, she was a normal sized woman). Leading to drastic overweighting, panic, and this poor woman drowning while her family watched from shore.

You are assuming the BCDs were exchanged at the surface. This time of year that instructor was probably in a drysuit, and he is a big dude. The 38+ pounds of weight he had in his BCD could very well have been more than a small woman in a wetsuit could keep at the surface. If she did a giant stride off the dock... ugh.

They probably did go to shore to do the swap, and then he let her get into the water with no staff already in. Assuming this guy was a "reasonably prudent professional" is a huuuge leap to make.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

I would like to see a clear answer to Kay Dee's question. When I look at the quotes below, they read to me like speculation. If so, that needs to be made clear. One of the traditions of this forum is that speculation be clearly labeled as such. Let's look at this sentence in particular:

"Instructor gave her his BCD without adjusting the weighting (he's a big dude, she was a normal sized woman). Leading to drastic overweighting, panic, and this poor woman drowning while her family watched from shore."

"This time of year that instructor was probably in a drysuit, and he is a big dude. The 38+ pounds of weight he had in his BCD could very well have been more than a small woman in a wetsuit could keep at the surface."​

These read like statements of fact coming from someone with inside information. IMO, the writer intended sentences like these:

"If we assume that the Instructor gave her his BCD without adjusting the weighting, and if we assume that he's a big dude, she was a normal sized woman, then this might have led to drastic overweighting...."

"It is possible that instructor was ... in a drysuit, and he could be a big dude. Such a person could potentially have as much as 38+ pounds of weight ... in his BCD, which could very well have been more than a small woman in a wetsuit could keep at the surface."​

I think we need an explanation from @wmperry of what he was intending.

I’ll let him speak for himself. However, I believe this is known data from people intimately involved with this accident that they are referencing. I’ve heard similar things but it’s third and fourth hand so from my perspective it’s purely speculation. You’ll see that in my posts I simply quoted it from the complaint itself so these are alleged facts. But I believe there are people in the Indiana diving community that have a much closer understanding of the facts. I’m not one of them.

 

[Biotech Diver]

I would like to see a clear answer to Kay Dee's question. When I look at the quotes below, they read to me like speculation. If so, that needs to be made clear. One of the traditions of this forum is that speculation be clearly labeled as such. Let's look at this sentence in particular:

"Instructor gave her his BCD without adjusting the weighting (he's a big dude, she was a normal sized woman). Leading to drastic overweighting, panic, and this poor woman drowning while her family watched from shore."

"This time of year that instructor was probably in a drysuit, and he is a big dude. The 38+ pounds of weight he had in his BCD could very well have been more than a small woman in a wetsuit could keep at the surface."​

These read like statements of fact coming from someone with inside information. IMO, the writer intended sentences like these:

"If we assume that the Instructor gave her his BCD without adjusting the weighting, and if we assume that he's a big dude, she was a normal sized woman, then this might have led to drastic overweighting...."

"It is possible that instructor was ... in a drysuit, and he could be a big dude. Such a person could potentially have as much as 38+ pounds of weight ... in his BCD, which could very well have been more than a small woman in a wetsuit could keep at the surface."​

I think we need an explanation from @wmperry of what he was intending.

They are also assuming the instructor put all of his weights in his BC and didn’t wear a wait belt. When I dove with a dry suit I preferred a weight belt over having all of my weights in the BC.

*edited to change wetsuit to dry suit. I think autocorrect changed it. . When I dove with a dry suit I preferred a belt with some trim weights in my BC.

 

[wmperry]

I would say 2nd hand information for me, label it speculation if you wish.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

I would say 2nd hand information for me, label it speculation if you wish.

The details should come out as this progresses. Since the shop & instructor are uninsured according to the DAN lawsuit there’s no insurance company to settle. This may actually go to trial.

 

[boulderjohn]

I am a fairly big guy myself, and I have done a lot of drysuit dives. (I have not, however, done a lot of single AL 80 tank drysuit dives.) When I am diving with double steel Worthington tanks and an aluminum backplate with my drysuit in freshwater, I use no extra weight whatsoever. (I don't use a steel backplate because it is too much weight.) When I have dived with single Worthington LP 85s and a steel backplate, I don't use much weight (I would have to look it up--just a handful of pounds.) Years ago, when I dived with a ScubaPro back inflate BCD, a drysuit, and an AL 80 tank in freshwater, I used 16 pounds.

In other words, I am amazed that someone needs 38+ pounds, so that may be why I was assuming speculation was involved.

 

[Hppyfam]

Well... that is interesting

Another lawsuit against Bottoms Up, this time from DAN in federal court. DAN RISK RETENTION GROUP, INC. v. BOTTOMS UP SCUBA INDY LLC et al

Evidently BU lied about never having been expelled from a training agency and DAN rescinded their policies in mid-December of 2020. So they were operating without adequate insurance.

 

[KevinNM]

I am a fairly big guy myself, and I have done a lot of drysuit dives. (I have not, however, done a lot of single AL 80 tank drysuit dives.) When I am diving with double steel Worthington tanks and an aluminum backplate with my drysuit in freshwater, I use no extra weight whatsoever. (I don't use a steel backplate because it is too much weight.) When I have dived with single Worthington LP 85s and a steel backplate, I don't use much weight (I would have to look it up--just a handful of pounds.) Years ago, when I dived with a ScubaPro back inflate BCD, a drysuit, and an AL 80 tank in freshwater, I used 16 pounds.

In other words, I am amazed that someone needs 38+ pounds, so that may be why I was assuming speculation was involved.

Need 38 pounds, or uses 38 pounds? The entirety of this incident suggest excellence in diving isn’t prized by the company or their instructors. Maybe diving grossly overweighted isn’t just for students here?

 

[rick00001967]

Another lawsuit against Bottoms Up, this time from DAN in federal court. DAN RISK RETENTION GROUP, INC. v. BOTTOMS UP SCUBA INDY LLC et al

Evidently BU lied about never having been expelled from a training agency and DAN rescinded their policies in mid-December of 2020. So they were operating without adequate insurance.

perhaps this is a stupid question but i do not understand why DAN is suing ?

 

[lowwall]

perhaps this is a stupid question but i do not understand why DAN is suing ?

This is a pure guess since I don't want to pay to read the filing, but what would make sense is that Bottoms Up had a current insurance policy through DAN. However when DAN got pulled in on this case, they went through Bottoms Up's insurance application and found the alleged lie. So now they are asking the court to either make a legal determination that the insurance contact was invalid from the start or they are asking the court for a ruling that Bottoms Up must repay DAN for anything it has to pay out to cover claims arising while the policy was in effect.