Worst trend in Scuba Diving instruction many of us have ever seen...Avoid Groupon!

[nimoh]

Milk has an expiration date and a manufacturer's name and it's illegal to sell if expired or spoiled.

The laws of finance are still in effect. If a vendor (an sort of vendor) is only getting half their normal price (groupon's cut is about 50%), you're pretty much guaranteed that something is going to get cut somewhere.

flots.

I think you missed the point, however milk doesn't have to expired to be sour. Feel free to insert you own example -- spider in your cereal? punctured coke can?

 

[gypsyjim]

Milk can have, and has, had
water added to it, both at dairy farms, and the processing plants, to try to squeeze out more profit.

One way to add to your bottom line in a price war has always been to start cutting corners.

 

[nimoh]

just to be clear, my first post about sour milk was only intended to be an anecdote, it was not my intention to derail this thread

gypsyjim: that's it exactly--a dive operation doesn't need groupon to cut corners to make money, it is their choice alone.

 

[Peter Guy]

Dan V wrote

In the 70's, the thinking was to give first time dive students the best and most complete training possible, and to mandate real skills and abilities to handle actual emergency scenarios, including harrassment drills.

I'm sorry but I just have to call BS here. My Grandfather had the right saying (with a nod to Carly Simon): "Good old days? Hell, there weren't any good old days."

Were some of the classes "in the good old days" like Dan wrote? I'm sure -- and some of them are still that way (see way too many posts by DCBC ). BUT, I know that there were classes that were, quite frankly, not all that different from the way a lot of classes are taught today. Not minimal but just, well, average with a focus on getting the student through the class and enjoying blowing bubbles.

I had a long discussion with a shop owner acquaintence recently about the shop's experience with Groupon and how it has changed (or, as it turns out, NOT changed) the training regimen. I was told that, at first, the thought was "We're not making any money from these students, what can be cut" but then, after thinking about it, the mind set changed and the realization sunk in that these weren't "Groupon Students" but merely "Students."

This shop's experience appears to be that, in fact, once ALL of the revenue is taken into consideration, it is a very profitable system. And, of interest, the shop's Open Water classes are completely booked through the end of September!

BTW, a little Seattle area company has also determined that keeping entry prices at a bare minimum for one of its products is an extremely lucrative way of gaining customers, revenue and profits -- which is why Amazon's Kindles (of all kinds) are sold at cost.

Just like with Amazon, IF the dive shop does provide add on value for the customer (student) then the Groupon concept could be very lucrative AND provide a wonderful experience for all.

Dan -- it really doesn't have to be a negative, although I'll grant you that, done poorly, it will be.

 

[gypsyjim]

just to be clear, my first post about sour milk was only intended to be an anecdote, it was not my intention to derail this thread

gypsyjim: that's it exactly--a dive operation doesn't need groupon to cut corners to make money, it is their choice alone.

An op makes choices about the quality of whatever they sell, but drastically cutting the $$ going into the register forces them to find ways to make that lost $$ up somewhere. Making more sales, add on charges, or lowering quality are all ways this may be done.

To recover the $$ lost to coupon discounts an op has to do a lot more business, and some will try the high volume, low quality route, while others choose another path.

It may not be the fault of the coupon, but overly relying on such a sales tool can cause some ops to cut a lot of corners.

 

[danvolker]

Dan V wrote

I'm sorry but I just have to call BS here. My Grandfather had the right saying (with a nod to Carly Simon): "Good old days? Hell, there weren't any good old days."

Were some of the classes "in the good old days" like Dan wrote? I'm sure -- and some of them are still that way (see way too many posts by DCBC ). BUT, I know that there were classes that were, quite frankly, not all that different from the way a lot of classes are taught today. Not minimal but just, well, average with a focus on getting the student through the class and enjoying blowing bubbles.

I had a long discussion with a shop owner acquaintence recently about the shop's experience with Groupon and how it has changed (or, as it turns out, NOT changed) the training regimen. I was told that, at first, the thought was "We're not making any money from these students, what can be cut" but then, after thinking about it, the mind set changed and the realization sunk in that these weren't "Groupon Students" but merely "Students."

This shop's experience appears to be that, in fact, once ALL of the revenue is taken into consideration, it is a very profitable system. And, of interest, the shop's Open Water classes are completely booked through the end of September!

BTW, a little Seattle area company has also determined that keeping entry prices at a bare minimum for one of its products is an extremely lucrative way of gaining customers, revenue and profits -- which is why Amazon's Kindles (of all kinds) are sold at cost.

Just like with Amazon, IF the dive shop does provide add on value for the customer (student) then the Groupon concept could be very lucrative AND provide a wonderful experience for all.

Dan -- it really doesn't have to be a negative, although I'll grant you that, done poorly, it will be.

Peter,
I think calling BS is harsh language for a friendly discussion.
In any event, at minimum you can be sure I am pulling from personal experience. In 1972 when I got certified, I had to drive from Eden ( where I lived) to the outskirts of Buffalo...an area called Tonawanda on Niagara Falls Blvd....Great Lakes Divers was a NAUI shop, one of very few dive shops within 60 miles. As far as I can recollect, there were no PADI shops....there may have been some YMCA, but the one that people talked about that knew someone that dove, was Great Lakes.
There was no such thing as "volume" sales in Dive Instruction back then. Classes took like 5 or 6 weeks, and my open water --Basic NAUI cert had pretty much everything in it that today's PADI Divemaster Cert has in it. There have been a few modifications for gear, but the guts of the course was NOTHING like a PADI or NAUI Open water or Basic course today.

I don't believe the "modularization" of dive training into smaller blocks, easier to sell, had anything to do with the discussions you may have had with your Grandfather. I think DEMA paved the way, and I think each training agency followed the basic direction that they needed to OPEN UP DIVING TO A WIDER DEMOGRAPHIC. And this "is"/ "was" the trend that I'm talking about.

I think real changes to NAUI occurred in the early 80's...coincidentally around the time that PADI began growing by leaps and bounds, and the whole modularization of training evolution began. But this is more my musing over this, and not so much stating what I believe to be fact.

 

[Peter Guy]

If "B.S." is offensive, how about "Oh Fiddlesticks!"

I have no idea what dive training was like in the 60s, 70s, 80s or 90s -- or for that matter, ANY TIME -- except for the classes I've had (or watched). And all of those classes were in the Pacific Northwest. My first Open Water Class was a semester -- guess what, it was that long because, well, it was a university class at a school that was on a semester system. I'd be willing to bet the instructor (swim coach) decided to stretch things out as much as he did just to fill the time. Yes, we were pretty competent pool divers at the end of the course but it certainly didn't need to be as long as it was. I also don't remember doing any of those "very important skills" that people like DCBC say EVERY DIVER MUST KNOW. Maybe we did them, maybe we didn't -- but obviously they are long forgotten.

I know that not every class was a "DCBC" type class. This is NOT to say that some (a lot of?) classes could be more robust -- but that isn't a result of Groupon or the like. If properly marketed, a "Groupon Class" system can lead to a very competent diving class. It won't be like "the good old days" and Thank Goodness (is that OK to write?) for that.

I was around in the Good Old Days and contrary to what you might think, my grandfather was correct, "Hell, there weren't any good old days!"

 

[ams511]

I wish I could have had a groupon for my OW cert. It's costing me $600 + fins (have a mask and snorkel already) and transportation!

If you had the time you could fly down to Florida and do it on a Groupon.

---------- Post added May 31st, 2013 at 02:54 PM ----------

I think the issue is the concept of "the volume discount" and what this will mean at most dive shops --in order to offer a volume discount in training....in order to sell something already priced low to move, and now sell it for 1/4, what will most shops give up in quality of service and training?

Milk has an expiration date and a manufacturer's name and it's illegal to sell if expired or spoiled.

The laws of finance are still in effect. If a vendor (any sort of vendor) is only getting half their normal price (groupon's cut is about 50%), you're pretty much guaranteed that something is going to get cut somewhere. flots.

You are both wrong. You need to look at the cost structure of scuba instruction. The cost is largely the same if their is one student or six (or whatever the maximum standards dictate). The shop already hired the instructor and rented the pool time. So if you are a dive shop that only has one or two students per class then you can use Groupon to fill out the classes. The incremental cost of additional students (to the maximum standards allowed) is basically zero if the shop has idle tanks and equipment.

Maybe the instructors getting upset is due to the fact that now their classes are fuller and they need to work harder.

---------- Post added May 31st, 2013 at 02:56 PM ----------

I think you missed the point, however milk doesn't have to expired to be sour. Feel free to insert you own example -- spider in your cereal? punctured coke can?

How about blaming the newspaper for poorly performing car you bought from an advertisement.

---------- Post added May 31st, 2013 at 03:00 PM ----------

BTW, a little Seattle area company has also determined that keeping entry prices at a bare minimum for one of its products is an extremely lucrative way of gaining customers, revenue and profits -- which is why Amazon's Kindles (of all kinds) are sold at cost.

This was the philosophy of Kodak, sell the camera cheap so the client buys film, which worked until they lost their film monopoly. Also Gillette and others do this with razors. Sell the razor cheap and lock the consumer in on the blades. I am sure there are other examples but in order for this to work you need to make additional sales which is what Amazon is counting on. Also they charge you an extra $20 if you do not want to be bombarded with ads.

 

[Tortuga68]

I think calling BS is harsh language for a friendly discussion

Maybe he's just using "guerrilla marketing" to get people's attention...

 

[gypsyjim]

Maybe he's just using "guerrilla marketing" to get people's attention...

On the other hand, maybe he thought this thread was in the Pub, and not the "New Diver", general discussion forum, where we are supposed to behave ourselves, and not start fights, or call each other names.