Would like peoples thoughts on this

[boulderjohn]

Initially I thought this was going to be some type of "Discover Scuba" in about 10' (assuming this instructor didn't have a pool for confined work.) But when I saw that they went to 38' and stayed under for 45 minutes, I was shocked. As Jim said, it's disgusting and unfortunate.

I

But, I think a line has been crossed when someone intentionally misleads someone else. Claiming to be a 'certified instructor' and then grossly violating standards for that certification would seem to me to be misleading.

Could we be specific about the standards being violated so grossly?

With PADI, an open water experience is optional for Discover Scuba Diving. If it is included, the maximum ratio for a certified instructor is 4:1. The maximum depth is 40 feet. There is no time limit on the dive.

Like Cave Diver, I have some concerns about the location for the dive, but what other standards were violated?

 

[cbm32]

I am far from being an expert but...... I guess I am not bothered much by this being done by the two 48 year old guys. However, it would seem that to take two 14 year olds with zero prior experience on this dive was ill advised to say the least.

 

[xyrandomyx]

Could we be specific about the standards being violated so grossly?

With PADI, an open water experience is optional for Discover Scuba Diving. If it is included, the maximum ratio for a certified instructor is 4:1. The maximum depth is 40 feet. There is no time limit on the dive.

Like Cave Diver, I have some concerns about the location for the dive, but what other standards were violated?

After reading Cave Diver's response (and another person's that questioned the facts of the matter), I realised I was jumping to conclusions. It was the part about 'underwater cave system' that seemed particularly wrong to me. But, taken in the context of Cave Diver's explanation, I realise that it was quite possibly just a bit of exaggeration on the part of the new divers.

So, sorry for jumping on the bandwagon of moral outrage, shock and disgust.

I do still stand by my assertion that misleading someone into believing something is safe is not OK, even if you believe that people have the right to make their own choices about how much risk they are prepared to accept.

 

[Zeldah]

May I jump in here and have someone clarify. What is the difference between a swim through and a short cave? Is a swim through/short cave an acceptable thing for a new diver or still considered an overhead enviroment? Is it o.k. to enter an area that you can see exits from? I refused to enter the Kittiwake on my first post cert dive even though the DM said it was a swim through, I thought an overhead is anywhere you cannot immediately ascend. What is deemed o.k.? Sorry if I am sidetracking the thread a tad :confused4:

 

[Cave Diver]

May I jump in here and have someone clarify. What is the difference between a swim through and a short cave? Is a swim through/short cave an acceptable thing for a new diver or still considered an overhead enviroment? Is it o.k. to enter an area that you can see exits from? I refused to enter the Kittiwake on my first post cert dive even though the DM said it was a swim through, I thought an overhead is anywhere you cannot immediately ascend. What is deemed o.k.? Sorry if I am sidetracking the thread a tad :confused4:

I believe it was Rick Murchison that wrote a very good description of the difference here on this board a while back. I'll see if I can find it and post it.

 

[Zeldah]

I believe it was Rick Murchison that wrote a very good description of the difference here on this board a while back. I'll see if I can find it and post it.

That would be great, always trying to learn from the board

 

[Cave Diver]

Here is the comment, from two different threads, and a PDF of a story he originally attached to the posts.

A swimthrough is only a swimthrough (not an overhead) if it meets the following criterea (my definition):
(1) You can see the exit from the entrance, and for the entire swim through the swimthrough.
(2) You can see that there's plenty of room to make the swim without entanglement hazard and without any "squeezes" (restrictions).
(3) The total distance from the entrance to the surface is less than the distance you can perform a CESA; in no case more than 130'.
Some things that never qualify are rooms, caverns and caves where you must turn around and swim back the way you came in to get out - those are overheads and require a continuous guideline to a spot from which a direct ascent to the surface can be made. (And proper equipment and training)
Please see the attached article, which explains why.
Rick

My rule's pretty simple.
If
1) The entry and exit are two different points (may be the same hole if it's big enough that I never have to turn my back on it).
2) I can see the exit to open water from the entrance and for the entire time I'm "swimming through."
3) I can see the entire passage is big enough to swim through without any entanglement hazard.
4) The total distance from entry to surface is 130' or less.
Then
It's a swimthrough and doesn't require a line.
Otherwise, a continuous line to open water is required.
Before you contemplate even a "tiny" penetration into a room or cave with a single exit that's going to be behind you, or an exit you can't see before you enter, please read - and heed - the attached article.
Rick

 

[Zeldah]

Here is the comment, from two different threads, and a PDF of a story he originally attached to the posts.

Thanks, it is all making more sense now Apprciate the help. That PDF has quite the story :errrr:

 

[Rhenry]

A few years ago i was on a cruise, we also went on a discovery scuba outing. That was almost exactly what we had. The only difference is we spent about 1 hour going over masks, regulator and ascending drills before went down. We were down to 35 feet, stayed down for about 40-60 minutes. We were in a cove that had a shark fence at the entrance, lots of fish and boats, cannons, and other things to see. When we got done with the dive we were whisked back to the cruise ship. It was a very memorable event and i got certified two weeks later at a shop back home. It is what got me started, but if i knew at the time what i know now i would have been much more nervous then i was at the time.

 

[Hokie Diver1]

Agreed Rhenry....I am newly certified and am glad my instructor was somewhat conservative. I now know enough to be more nervous than I was before I was certified. Ignorance can be bliss, I just prefer not to be ignorant 60+ feet down. I know my limitations and what I am capable of doing and not doing. I'm very adventurous and that is the thing that can get someone into trouble real quick.