WWI Warship?

[MDImike]

Hi All,
Haven't posted in a while (as ScubaBoard keeps reminding me every time I log in :mooner: ) so I'm posting about a possible WWI era shipwreck that I've been diving on over the past season.

The wreck is located NE of Nelson's Island in Aboukir Bay, Egypt on Culloden Reef. Although I've dove on the wreck over a dozen times I'm still finding clues as to the identity of the ship. The ship is documented on the Admiralty charts for the area prior to 1920 and has been known about by the local fishermen for years and years. However, since recreational diving here is relatively new, not too many people have been on the wreck. The wreck site lies in about 9 meters on the aft end and descends to around 17 meters at the bow. It is obvious that the ship was salvage from the main deck and up and a lot of the machinery was also salvage. What remains are the 4 coal-fired boilers (possibly Heine boilers..more research required), equipment foundations, and a LOT of ordnance in what I suspect are cargo holds 2 and 3 (I suspect that there was a cargo hold forward of where the ordnance lies...but I could be wrong). The ordnance consists predominantly of projectiles that resemble French naval ammunition. Need to get back down there and measure them though.

Viz is typically around 3-5 meters on a good day due to the Nile waters that flood the bay this time of year, so viewing the entire wreck and all of the relational aspects is pretty much not possible. The bow section is in pretty bad shape with much of the forecastle missing. What is left is totally covered with old fishing nets which will take a couple of dives to cut away if I can find a dive buddy willing to help (I usually take customers out to the wreck site...not going to ask them to help: too risky). The hull is constructed of hot-rivet construction and is approximately 75-80 meters in length and with a beam of mayber 15-18 meters (hard to tell since the wreck is spread out on each side). The stern section was upright a few months ago and had a gudgeon-and-pintle configuration that rose up 5.5-meters in depth which was a perfect place to do a safety stop. Since then however, the stern section has broken in half either due to local storm/wave action, or due to the Egyptian Navy "fishing" with hand-grenades (found 5 Russian made White Phosphorus grenades in the area a couple of dives ago).

Although not officially an archaeological or historical site, the wreck is approaching the 100-year old mark (if it is a WWI wreck), or may already be a 100-year old wreck if my research can prove it. Have found a few pieces of brass that resemble sword pommels, as well as some marble pieces that I would imagine were either in the ship's heads or Galley. THIS is the fun part about diving for me! Diving on a wreck and doing the research in order to find out the ship's history.

Will be posting pics of the wreck when I take a few good quality ones.
In the meantime....Dive Safe All!
MDI Mike
Master Divers International - Alexandria, Egypt's North Coast Dive Center
www.alexandriawreckdivers.com (dive center forum)

 

[Gilldiver]

Most steamers of that time period would have only 2 holds aft of the engine. If there are three hold together, they should be forward of the boiler/engine space.

You can have a look through the Lloyds War Loss Register for WWI to see if anything is listed in that area. Most Allied merchant ships should be listed in it.

 

[MDImike]

After reading your post Gilldiver, and then reviewing my notes and what bad pics that I do have, I now think that maybe there were only two cargo holds as all of the ordnance that I have found are aft of the main machinery area (or what's left of it).

Would love to have a look at the Lloyd's resgister if I could get access to it. As I live here in Egypt that is not possible. Most of my research is limited to the local Bibliotecha IL-Iskandreyya and the internet. I do, however, have partial lists of ships that were operating in the Med during WWI (all navies). I've got 8 "possibles" on my list so far but still need more information.

Will probably be out on the wreck again in the next couple of days to check out the bow section a bit more.

Thanks for the clue on the cargo hold/engine configuration. It definitely helps!
MDImike
Master Divers International - Alexandria, Egypt's North Coast Dive Center
www.alexandriawreckdivers.com (forum)

 

[Gilldiver]

PM me the list of names that you have, I can get the relivent Lloyd's Register data and email it to you. This is from the main lloyd's register that gives the ships construction data - Length, beam, depth of hold, tonnang, engine type and sizes, boiler info, manufacturer of the hull, engines, and sometime boilers, etc. I am usualy in the Library once a week or so.

The war Registers for WWII are a good source of data as they give the ships name, route, sometimes cargo info, and recorded loss position. The WWI War Loss Register is not as good, but you can still get some good info.

 

[MDImike]

OK Gilldiver,
Thanks for the offer! I've already sent you the PM. It's nice to find someone on a forum that actually cares about finding out about the history of ships and is willing to go out of their way to help find some information for someone that they don't even know. Kinda restores my faith in asking for information on dive forums where most people just want to go out and find the "shiny" stuff.

As part of my dive center's training programs, I also offer to teach divers how to assist trained archaeologists conduct surveys, photography,and documentation of shipwrecks here. As well as having worked recently with the Egyptian Department of Underwater Archaeology (EDUA) in conducting pre-disturbance surveys of the Marsa Matruh Harbor and the Roman remains of "Ains" (wells) located in the Siwa Oasis.

Diving on history is just plain fun! And we have LOTS of it here!

Thanks again!
MDImike
Master Divers International - Alexandria, Egypt's North Coast Dive Center
www.alexandriawreckdivers.con (forum)

 

[Gilldiver]

The NAS courses are just about the best ones for sport divers. If you can find someone to teach them for you or get yourself certified to teach them.

But one of the greatest things you can teach anyone is simple marine architecture. For modern ships this would be a basic review of ship layouts and how the holds were situated. The Lloyds Registers have keys that include simple line drawings showing ship types, hold, and tank layouts. One of the things that occurred to me was when you said that there might be 3 holds together. What I stated about most sets of three hold being placed forward is true. But a diver might see a forward collision bulkhead and the empty space forward of it to the bow and think it is a small hold.

 

[Netsvan]

Can anyone point me in the right direction to find good wreck dives in Belize?

Thanks:cool2:
post 2

 

[MDImike]

What you are saying is true concerning ship construction. The space that I may have considered being a forward hold could also have been a ballast or potable water tank (for example), or a void (depending on size in relation to the spaces around it). I fully understand modern ship construction (1960 to present), having spent almost 30 years working on US Naval ships (Retired US Navy here). But that experience doesn't apply to the nuances of how a shipwreck deteriorates over time. I'm used to seeing ships which are complete and operational on the surface.

And you are also correct concerning the NAS course and courses like it. I took the MAHS course many years ago and learned a lot from it. I also highly recommend courses of this type as they are extremely valuable in educating sport/recreational divers about archaeologically and historically sensitive sites and how to approach them.

I teach a course here which has a similar format, but focuses more on Graeco-Roman and Pharonic era sites than on shipwrecks. Same idea, different target audience. Unfortunately WWI shipwrecks, and steel shipwrecks of the various nations that have been present here from the late 1800's to the end of WWII are a weak point of mine (which I'm working on overcoming one shipwreck at a time!)

SandShark
Master Divers International - Alexandria, Egypt's North Coast Dive Center
www.alexandriawreckdivers.com (forum)

 

[Gilldiver]

In the US, MAHS is just about the best that you can do. As you know their course is based off of the NAS and uses the NAS handbook. I wish that NAS had a bigger presence in the US, but right now it is almost invisible. Last year NOAA was going to have a number of people around the country trained to Level 4 status so that they could start teaching. But it got the budget axe.

What I like about NAS is that their certifications are recognized all over the world while MAHS may not be. So, NAS is more portable then MAHS but both are very good courses. In fact I organized a MAHS course in Connecticut a few years ago.

As for marine architecture and engineering, the best thing you can do is collect some of the early correspondents course texts that were used by qualifying engineers and deck officers in the 1880 to 1920 times frame. From them you will get a good understanding of the ships and machinery of that period. I have found that most archaeologists have very firm backgrounds in Greco/Roman ships but haven't a clue of what a simple, compound, and triple compound steam engine is and how they worked.

Perhaps one of the best sources to go to for understanding how the technology changed is the Bureau Veritas registers. In the first part of each register there are minimum standards for each classification of ship. These minimums include structural thicknesses and materials and construction techniques etc. By starting in the 1830's and jumping every 10 years you can get a good feeling for the technology advances.

I also recommend collecting or reading as many old Marine Engineering catalogs and magazines. Just by reviewing the drawings used in the advertisements you get a real understanding of what the equipment was for and what it looked like.

 

[wreckvalle]

Just thought you might be interested in the USS San Diego, a WWI cruiser sunk off Fire Island NY.

The USS SAN DIEGO (armored Cruiser 6) Shipwreck  New York and New Jersey's Wreck Valley


Safe Diving
Capt. Dan
The Shipwreck Expo Directory Capt. Dan Berg's Guide to World Wide Shipwreck information