You guys caught my attention!

[bygolly]

Hi Vintage Divers,

I was first certified in 1979 when horse-collar BC's (no power inflator) and 71 cf steelies on backpacks were de rigueur. Not exactly vintage era but certainly different from the stuff today. Jacket style BC's were just making their first appearances and I seem to remember that back-mount styles were out there (the term "wings" had not been adopted yet) but I had still to see one. The "debate" was well under way though. I had also heard some older divers talk about their double hose regs and how happy they were with them especially for ice diving and photography. I remember some murmurings about breathing hard but they were few and quiet. I was the tender age of 24 then and didn't give them much thought? I guess I had some other things on my mind.
Now that I am starting on my 6th decade and have rediscovered diving (plus UW photography) I am getting interested in the advantages of using double hose regs. I started to read this forum with the hopes of getting some more info regarding DH regs and I started to get an interest in vintage diving as a whole.
I would like to start with baby steps and from my readings here it seems that the first logical step might be to acquire a Royal Aqua-Master and upgrade it with the Phoenix kit (many deserved kudos to Luis I understand) as I would like to be able to use the reg with my existing gear (BC, computer yada yada). I didn't run across any other regs that could be adapted in such a way in my readings; did I miss something? The reason I ask is of course I am hunting for regs to buy and hopefully rebuilt/upgrade and I have run across many other flavours: Voit, Healthways, Dacor, other USD models etc. Each of these seem to have their aficionados here? Would you guys care to comment on your favorite? I have also discovered the web sites VDH, VSS and spectrum's Scuba knowtes (nice resource BTW). I guess I have a lot of research to do but I would like to get started soon.
I hope this hasn't been asked and answered too many times here. Just directing me to the right threads will be most helpful and appreciated. Search has helped but I feel I may be missing something.

Cheers and thanx,
Bill

 

[Nemrod]

Welcome to vintage diving and minimalist scuba diving.

The Phoenix conversion is applicable to any DA Aqua Master, Royal Aqua Master or Voit Navy with some few exceptions. The Phoenix essentially converts the DA and Voit Navy to a Royal Aqua Master balanced first stage but with the modern convenience of LP multiple LP and HP ports.

You can BTW using a banjo SPG adapter and a hookah port LP adapter accomplish much the same thing as the Phoenix and is how we accomplished those additions pre-Phoenix.

This regulator is, despite the placard on the can, is a Voit dual stage Navy converted to a Phoenix configuration:

Some of my fleet:

Phoenix at the heart of a modern wing and tech style Hog rig:

Pre-Phoenix rig:

My Mistral single stage with banjo SPG adapter and military harness:

A friend drifts in front of the Mammoth Spring entrance at Sea Hunt I:

As to what to start with, that is easy, never turn down a Royal Aqua Master (often referred to as a RAM or if Phoenix converted a PRAM) but a DA Aqua Master (DAAM) is a common and completely fine twin hose to start with and often very affordable. Voit stuff, due to the connection with Sea Hunt and relative rarity, can run a Navy to over a 1,000 dollars on eBay compared to the identical (yes they are the same regulators mechanically) DA Aqua Master for 150 dollars.

You will find that the forums at vdh and vss are the main vintage forums, this one here is sort of a backwater. BTW, you do not need a Phoenix to dive twin hose unless you plan to use it more in a modern configuration.

Yes, wings have been around since the mid 70s and I have been using them, then called back inflates, from the beginning. As well, for pure vintage diving, pre-74, a BC is not needed. In fact, purist do not accept any BC as vintage and certainly nothing beyond a manual inflate horsecollar.

The Scuba Pro Stabilizing Jacket came out in the mid 70s I do believe, wings mid 70s, horsecollars ubiquitous through the 70s:

My old early 80s Sea Tec wing on a modern plate beside a modern Oxy Cheq Mach V on a Freedom Plate:

Phoenix conversion kit from vdh:

N

 

[james croft]

If you get a DH reg stick with the U.S. Divers or Voit brands as replacement parts are readily available to completely restore and overhaul one. Avoid the Dacors, Healthways, and the Nemrod Snarks as you will have to buy used or NOS parts to keep them going, although some folks do restore them to diving condition. It will be addictive once you dive a nice double hose reg.

 

[herman]

Not a lot I can add to Nemrods post. I do need to warn you there is some powerful, addictive drugs added to the double hose reg hoses...one is not enough....just look at N's collection and the rest of us are hard on his heels. If you try one, be prepaired to spend alot of money.
Personally, I would not convert a RAM to a Phoenix. They tend to sell for a good bit more and once converted there is no difference between a converted RAM and a DA. I would rebuild the RAM as is and dive it and get a DA for conversion. Also, understand that Phoenix nozzles are built in batches and there is a fair amount of time between batches so don't expect to find one as an off the shelf item. If you find a DA, go ahead and rebuild it and learn to dive it. Most, if not all the parts you purchased to restore it will be reused in a Phoenix conversion so you might as well be learning to use it and enjoying it until the next batch comes out. There is a little learning curve with a DH reg so be prepaired to spend some time getting to understand them. They do take some getting use to and are a lot more particular about the way they are mounted. I have not problems using them with my back inflated BC but they do not play well with jacket style BCs at all. If you can find a vintage diver to spend some time with, you will be a lot better off. Starting off, stick with the USD regs- RAMs or DAAMs, unless you get a steal on a Voit. Older USD regs and USD mistrals can be rebuilt easily but can not be converted to a PRAM. If you choose, you can try your hand at rebuilding some of the other brands once you get your feet wet with the USD regs.

Edit: RAM= Royal Aquamaster / DA or DAAM= DA Aquamaster / PRAM= DA or RAM with Pheonix mod

 

[Luis H]

WARNING: diving with double hose regulators is extremely addicting and can easily lead to the purchasing of many more double hose regulators.

 

[Luis H]

You already got some great advice.

A couple of things I will add.
The Aqua Master and the Royal Aqua Master are identical except for the different first stage. The Royal Aqua Master has a balanced first stage that will hold very precise and constant intermediate pressure (IP) independent of any tank supply pressure.

Since the Phoenix conversion totally replaces the first stage it doesn't matter if you start with a Ram or a DA Aqua Master. The only shame is spending extra money for a RAM if you are not going to use the original first stage. The Phoenix is mechanically the same as the RAM.

From a collector stand point the Phoenix can always be removed and revert the regulator to its original configuration.


I don't agree that the Phoenix RAM does not work well with a vest (or jacket) style BC. It may not work well with some models, but with many models it works great. Some of the vest BC with soft or semi soft back plates will not interfere with the double hose can like the rigid back plates will.

I often use a highly modified Cayman BC that came with a built in vintage style plastic back pack and it works extremely well with the Phoenix case. My major modification was taking the shoulder straps directly to the back pack to better secure the tank on my back. The BC came with a waist strap (no cummerbund) which I prefer, and with the modified shoulder straps it controls holds the tank right against my back.

Vest BC (as well as any tank mounted BC) could have the disadvantage of slightly lifting the tank away from your body when any air is added to the BC. This situation will hurt the breathing performance of the regulator and needs to be avoided. To avoid this any BC needs to fit well and hold the tank snug against your back. If the regulator moves away from your back it will not breathe as well. This applies to any tank mounted BC and harness.

 

[halocline]

Take it from a relative newbie to doublehose diving, it is addictive. Once you get going on the regs, you'll soon realize that because of their positioning sensitivity, you'll start getting interested in older style backpacks and coming up with interesting BC ideas, like Nemrod has. Trying to combine elements of vintage diving with elements of modern diving in an attempt to get the best of both worlds is pretty fun and can keep you busy for a long time.

 

[simonbeans]

OR, you could just dive it just as the regulators were dived, vintage.

 

[herman]

Luis, the problem I have seen with jacket style BCs (newer styles) is because you must leave them somewhat loose or inflated they will squeeze you too much. Loose, they will tend to float up some, seperating the tank and reg from the body and causing the reg to breath hard. The only jacket style BCs I have used my DH regs on have been while loaning the reg to others, I only use mine with an old BP or a back inflate BC. Thinking back on it, all of them were overweighted which required a lot of air in the BC, something a vintage diver would not likely have problems with. One particular diver kept complaining about how hard my PRAM breathed and I could not figure out what he was complaining about until it dawned on me that when he was horizonal, I could actually see between his back and the tank through the arm holes of the BC. With the BC snugged down and properly weighted I can see them working fine.

 

[herman]

OR, you could just dive it just as the regulators were dived, vintage.

That is a pretty violet harness Barb has.