Got My DM - But I Don't Want to Dive "This Way"...

[bigvivec]

You guys are alot more blunt than I am...but yeah...that was the sentiment...a few times we'd been out of "safe" gear for a dive, I give mine to a tourist, or woke up on someone's floor (younger days) and didn't have time to get back home to pick up my gear before going to work... and wear the sunbleached worn out junk that we keep in the bottom of the boat locker or the back of the dive van...torn mouthpieces, sand inside everything, bc too small, inflator not working, adjustable fins without booties as they are 2 sizes too small, same fins with duct tape on a broken strap...it doesn't end, and as a dive pro you will slowly find these things out as well as loose the dependency on your custom "rig"...in the end it is a tube to a bottle that let's you breathe underwater with a balloon that you can use to assist in bouyancy (but presumably not too much!)....

 

[bigvivec]

I think the topic has more to do with preference and honesty toward students rather than capabilities.

I think it has to do with a relativley inexperienced "tec" guy who has a bunch of money invested in his "rig" and wants to put it into play whenever he can, and feels out of sorts if he isn't in the equipment that puts his 2nd stage hose right "there" and the octopus right "there"...

A divemaster has more leeway in my book, but an instructor ought to dive the same rental junk that the class does, that way they can actually see how he recovers the 2nd stage and mirror it exactly, how he sets up his bc, etc...divemasters ought to also IMO, but again, not imperative as long as the boss is...

 

[Peter Guy]

As the relatively inexperienced "tec" guy I do have another question/observation for those of you who seem to think a "pro" should be diving "junk" -- and especially those who say a "pro" WILL BE diving junk due to swapping out his gear to the paying customer.

I freely admit I'm a newbie about all this. But, at least in our shop (and from what I recall from the written material, the "official" position of at least PADI) no DM nor Instructor should EVER provide his own gear to a paying customer. One's certification is for teaching (guiding) NOT gear providing.

It is one thing to assist the paying customer with getting gear from the shop (which has the liability insurance to cover the rental of gear or maintenance thereof) but a whole 'nuther thing to provide the paying customer with YOUR gear or doing maintenance on THEIR gear.

Perhaps it is just that I live in an area where there are a lot of attorneys (although not as many as in, say, California) but is it really the standard practice for "pros" to provide paying customers with their own personal gear?

 

[Thalassamania]

As the relatively inexperienced "tec" guy I do have another question/observation for those of you who seem to think a "pro" should be diving "junk" -- and especially those who say a "pro" WILL BE diving junk due to swapping out his gear to the paying customer.

I freely admit I'm a newbie about all this. But, at least in our shop (and from what I recall from the written material, the "official" position of at least PADI) no DM nor Instructor should EVER provide his own gear to a paying customer. One's certification is for teaching (guiding) NOT gear providing.

It is one thing to assist the paying customer with getting gear from the shop (which has the liability insurance to cover the rental of gear or maintenance thereof) but a whole 'nuther thing to provide the paying customer with YOUR gear or doing maintenance on THEIR gear.

Perhaps it is just that I live in an area where there are a lot of attorneys (although not as many as in, say, California) but is it really the standard practice for "pros" to provide paying customers with their own personal gear?

I have provided gear in situations where someone forgot theirs or had some sort of failure that I could not fix on the spot. What's the big deal about either handing out a loaner or fixing it.

There reaches a point where, due to liability considerations, we should all have everybody sign a waiver absolving us of all liability, even if we screw up, and the we should stay in bed.

What crap ... I'm always amazed how the very people who believe in "individual responsibility" when it comes to students doing things that they know nothing about, are the very same ones that are not willing to take on any individual responsibility and need a waiver that says even if they screw up they do not have to belly up to the bar and take responsibility for their actions as a "professional."

 

[seaducer]

As the relatively inexperienced "tec" guy I do have another question/observation for those of you who seem to think a "pro" should be diving "junk" -- and especially those who say a "pro" WILL BE diving junk due to swapping out his gear to the paying customer.

I freely admit I'm a newbie about all this. But, at least in our shop (and from what I recall from the written material, the "official" position of at least PADI) no DM nor Instructor should EVER provide his own gear to a paying customer. One's certification is for teaching (guiding) NOT gear providing.

It is one thing to assist the paying customer with getting gear from the shop (which has the liability insurance to cover the rental of gear or maintenance thereof) but a whole 'nuther thing to provide the paying customer with YOUR gear or doing maintenance on THEIR gear.

Perhaps it is just that I live in an area where there are a lot of attorneys (although not as many as in, say, California) but is it really the standard practice for "pros" to provide paying customers with their own personal gear?

well, it makes a difference in the eyes of the customer, and can mean the difference between getting paid or not, getting a larger tip or not at all, having the customer come back or not.

If you can give your gear up, and still be safe on the dive and do your job, seems to me to be a no brainer...

 

[Thalassamania]

well, it makes a difference in the eyes of the customer, and can mean the difference between getting paid or not, getting a larger tip or not at all, having the customer come back or not.

If you can give your gear up, and still be safe on the dive and do your job, seems to me to be a no brainer...

One answer is to have "spare bag" of shop gear that you don't mix with your own and the you grab on the way out the door. A complete reg, a BC, a mask, a snorkel, a pair of fins, some booties, some gloves, etc. It will not solve all problems, but it will fix most of them.

 

[TSandM]

Well, there are a lot of comments here that aren't very pertinent to Peter's situation. He's never going to work as a dive guide anywhere, and he's not worried about tips (nobody tips DMs who work with classes in our area, only the ones that work on boats). He got his DM so he could help out with OW classes, and not really for any other reason. I think he was also hoping to be able to bring a little diversity of technique and equipment so the students would get to see a wider variety of approaches. But having to give clients his gear and keep them happy really isn't in the equation at all.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I pretty much feel that the DM should be able to comfortably dive in just about any gear. You are a professional now. This is work, NOT fun play time and conditions might dictate that you dive with the gear at hand (as was mentioned above).

The comment about loaning gear and the associated liability is kinda funny. You're diving with open water students in cold water and very bad visibility and worried about loaning out a piece of gear? I would be more worried about the student who gets the up and down button mixed up on the BC.

From a liability standpoint, the whole idea of volunteering to be a DM on training dives is pretty crazy for anyone who has assets, in my opinion. In fact, getting the DM certification makes you a target when something bad happens. Better to take the course and skip the final exam if you are just trying to have fun.

 

[bigvivec]

I don't know...in the end this is how I feel about the original poster's questions...

Dive leaders ought to be able to dive anything, be under control in the water with any setup, and be past thinking about equipment as the very basic dives performed for OW checkout place very little demand on equipment...technical diving places a premium on equipment, pre dive planning, controls over precise trim control, gas consumption rates, etc...none of this is an issue for supervising a checkout dive...comfort and safety of the students is, and I think that a big can light on your head, double tanks and hoses everywhere could potentially hinder you from being able to assist that newbie that spits their regulator and bolts for the surface...it is all about leading by example...the key piece of gear IMO is fins...you need good, powerful ones that can get you from the front of the group to the back quickly, touching base with each semi petrified new diver, checking their air, letting them know that they are ok and not alone...the rest ought to be incidental...there is a big emphasis on gear when you first start diving and that's fine, but when a bunch of instructors and DMs sit around talking "shop", it is rarely about the latest in fin, mask or regulator design...it is about how to appraise a diver prior to entering the water, a potential disaster that was neatly avoided, or how they made a break through with a difficult student...teaching and supervising is about the human side of diving, allowing for fun while keeping things safe...rigs and snorkels should be among the last things considered...

 

[Peter Guy]

Dumpster wrote

You're diving with open water students in cold water and very bad visibility and worried about loaning out a piece of gear?

I'm not necessarily worried about it -- I wrote that it is the policy of the shop NOT to permit such (or so I was taught). "My" shop says -- "Dive your own gear, don't give it out to students, don't use shop rental gear." All this thread was originally about was, I have two different sets of gear and I wanted to use one set but was asked to use another. It has certainly migrated to other things.

I'm not sure I've learned anything worthwhile here (and as I wrote originally, I wasn't sure WHY I wrote the post, I was just a bit P.O'd) -- has anyone?