deep air

[Blackwood]

In a debating club that is known as a Personal Attack and is considered to be poor form at best and the last resort of the unprepared, second rates, and ignorant at worse.

Otoh, it can get you elected to high office

 

[dumpsterDiver]

That's just it...at 150 fsw you will not be stupid (barnyard or otherwise). If one isn't doing a complicated dive the slight impairment/hesitation involved will not be overwhelming. .......

I disagree completely with this statement. There is ample anecdotal evidence that some people CAN and some people CAN'T function at 150 feet. Just because you and I might function reasonably well at 150 feet doesn't mean everyone can.

On the boat I commonly dive, we had one diver who went into a complete and utter stupor on air at only 180 feet. From what I heard, he was immobilized, standing on the bottom and breathing but was completely unresponsive and somehow retained his reg. He was physically brought up the anchor line and regained conciousness (but subsequently toxed out on 100% at 20 feet). Somehow he survived with no ill effects.

I think my point is that if certain people say they can't function on air below a 100 or 130 or 150 ft, then I would be inclined to believe them.

My buddy dives solo on air to around 230 pretty commonly and I am always very nervous until his SMB hits the surface. I feel pretty confident to around 200 and have another friend who will never go to the bottom of the shipwreck and hangs on top at 140-160 ft, even though he has done that same dive 100 times.

I've done a few dives to 240 and one "experimental" solo dive on air to 278 (I think that was the depth; maybe it was 289?).

 

[Gilldiver]

Otoh, it can get you elected to high office

Like I said, it's the last resort of the unprepared, second rates, and ignorant. Shall was say Sarah Palin?

 

[Peter Guy]

DCBC wrote

My point is you can have a drink and can not be "legally impaired."

This is a false statement -- and I believe the underlying assumption DC made is at the heart of this whole "discussion."

Why is this a false statement? Because DCBC has confused "the legal limit" with "legally impaired" where "the legal limit" is when the law PRESUMES someone with a certain blood alcohol level to be impaired. There are many ways other than blood alcohol tests (of whatever kind) to "prove impairment by alcohol" -- trust me, as a former prosecutor (not to mention defense attorney) I used them.

Why do I believe this is (may be?) at the heart of this discussion? Because there appears to be a big disconnect between DCBC (and others, including Thal) who believe "deep air" doesn't impair PROVIDED THE DIVER IS PROPERLY TRAINED and others who believe "deep air" does impair the diver regardless of training but who appear to agree that, like a "professional alcoholic" (a term used to describe people who can drive, and function apparently well, with high blood alcohol levels but who are, in fact, quite impaired) "deep air" diving may lead to successful accommodations by the diver.

I have no idea which camp is correct. I know I've done some deep air diving and I really enjoyed it but I certainly wasn't in the "train to dive deep air" program -- we just went down and got narced.

But rather than continue this unending discussion, why don't the two camps try to determine where they agree and where they disagree at least on the following -- especially if there are any studies to actually support one's POV:

a. Does everyone, regardless of training, suffer from narcosis on deep air?

b. Can people, with proper training, reduce the practical effects of narcosis?

c. Does breathing Trimix reduce the actual effects of narcosis from deep air?

How about it everyone, want to see if you can actually agree on some things other than people should have some real diving experiences before diving deeper than 100' on whatever mix?

 

[scubadada]

Experience may have something to do with how one deals with narcosis. If narcosis is an experience that is dysphoric, one may not deal with it very successfully. However, if narcosis is perceived as a relative pleasurable experience, the adverse effects may minimal. I would suggest that this has something to do with ones previous experience and expectations. Perhaps us old gomers, due to previous experience, have the ability to deal with narcosis more effectively than naive individuals. I do not deny being narced on deeper air dives but treat the dive with great respect and care.

Hard for me to say it more tactfully than that.

Good diving, Craig

 

[gcbryan]

I disagree completely with this statement. There is ample anecdotal evidence that some people CAN and some people CAN'T function at 150 feet. Just because you and I might function reasonably well at 150 feet doesn't mean everyone can.

On the boat I commonly dive, we had one diver who went into a complete and utter stupor on air at only 180 feet. From what I heard, he was immobilized, standing on the bottom and breathing but was completely unresponsive and somehow retained his reg. He was physically brought up the anchor line and regained conciousness (but subsequently toxed out on 100% at 20 feet). Somehow he survived with no ill effects.

I think my point is that if certain people say they can't function on air below a 100 or 130 or 150 ft, then I would be inclined to believe them.

My buddy dives solo on air to around 230 pretty commonly and I am always very nervous until his SMB hits the surface. I feel pretty confident to around 200 and have another friend who will never go to the bottom of the shipwreck and hangs on top at 140-160 ft, even though he has done that same dive 100 times.

I've done a few dives to 240 and one "experimental" solo dive on air to 278 (I think that was the depth; maybe it was 289?).

I don't doubt that there are some differences between individuals and I certainly don't doubt whatever someone says regarding the way they felt.

Someone may be afraid of the dark and I don't doubt that their feelings were real.

I do think that most anyone's mental state at a certain depth will change with experience.

I know of people who aren't comfortable going below 60 fsw even though they have hundreds of dives. It's unusual but it's how they feel and good judgment would suggest that they (and I) respect those feelings. They don't try to convince everyone else however that there is something wrong with going below 60 fsw.

 

[wedivebc]

a. Does everyone, regardless of training, suffer from narcosis on deep air?
YES
b. Can people, with proper training, reduce the practical effects of narcosis?
YES

c. Does breathing Trimix reduce the actual effects of narcosis from deep air?
YES!

 

[gcbryan]

DCBC wrote This is a false statement -- and I believe the underlying assumption DC made is at the heart of this whole "discussion."

Why is this a false statement? Because DCBC has confused "the legal limit" with "legally impaired" where "the legal limit" is when the law PRESUMES someone with a certain blood alcohol level to be impaired. There are many ways other than blood alcohol tests (of whatever kind) to "prove impairment by alcohol" -- trust me, as a former prosecutor (not to mention defense attorney) I used them.

Why do I believe this is (may be?) at the heart of this discussion? Because there appears to be a big disconnect between DCBC (and others, including Thal) who believe "deep air" doesn't impair PROVIDED THE DIVER IS PROPERLY TRAINED and others who believe "deep air" does impair the diver regardless of training but who appear to agree that, like a "professional alcoholic" (a term used to describe people who can drive, and function apparently well, with high blood alcohol levels but who are, in fact, quite impaired) "deep air" diving may lead to successful accommodations by the diver.

I have no idea which camp is correct. I know I've done some deep air diving and I really enjoyed it but I certainly wasn't in the "train to dive deep air" program -- we just went down and got narced.

But rather than continue this unending discussion, why don't the two camps try to determine where they agree and where they disagree at least on the following -- especially if there are any studies to actually support one's POV:

a. Does everyone, regardless of training, suffer from narcosis on deep air?

b. Can people, with proper training, reduce the practical effects of narcosis?

c. Does breathing Trimix reduce the actual effects of narcosis from deep air?

How about it everyone, want to see if you can actually agree on some things other than people should have some real diving experiences before diving deeper than 100' on whatever mix?

a. I don't know that everyone "suffers" from narcosis on deep air but everyone is affected to some degree.

b.With training or experience people can adapt, to one degree or another, to most anything. That's one of mans greatest traits.

c.Not really a serious question...does a non-narcotic gas reduce the effects of a narcotic gas...of course.

d.Does staying above 120 fsw reduce even more risks associated with deep diving?

e.Does having safety divers on every dive reduce risks?

f.Is some diving just not that complicated and is it sometimes made unnecessarily complicated?

g.Is it safer to have a portable recompression chamber available at all times?

e.Is it relatively safer to go down a wall to look at marine life on air below 130 fsw than to penetrate something at those depths?

 

[MaxBottomtime]

a. Does everyone, regardless of training, suffer from narcosis on deep air?

Not on every dive. Some dives it is barely enough to notice. Sometimes it happens shallower. I've had a few narcosis moments in less than 150 feet, and managed to find an animal I was looking for and get it on video just fine below 200 feet.

b. Can people, with proper training, reduce the practical effects of narcosis?

Maybe, but they can certainly adapt to working while narced. Someone who welds every day can still manage to weld on deep air by concentrating on their work. Most deep air divers I have known reduce the risk by not swimming or exerting themselves while deep. CO2 narcosis comes on quickly, but can subside by stopping activity and taking a couple of deep breaths. I didn't believe it until I tried it after moving an anchor and chain on a deep dive. The narcosis went away as fast as it came on.

c. Does breathing Trimix reduce the actual effects of narcosis from deep air?

Of course. Is trimix affordable and availabe to all divers? No. Not everyone who wants to dive a deep wreck or reef can afford the classes and gas just to reduce narcosis. At the same time, not everyone who takes these classes and can afford the gas ever dives beyond recreational depths. As long as there are divers, there will be deep air diving.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

wwwscubacraft.com:80/experiences/videos.htmldive this down and get narced, yet enjoy deco.


Happy Diving