The Philosophy of Diver Training

[JKPAO]

Yes DC I have a Padi; Naui; SSI and my commercial course that was over 640 hours. I have taken advanced courses just to get to dive cheaper! It was so much per dive and alot cheaper to take a course and I got more diving in. I do understand that it is not cookie cutter service every where. (with good reason)

I applaud how many instructors teach in other agencies, But I do not bash Padi because of their
OW course was one way or another. I see it as different.

I know it is good to expose people to things outside the box but they should have a good
idea what is expected. (verbal or read) An instructor can not expose a student to all challenages in a single course. It has to come with experience. I believe the best way to learn to dive is to dive!

I may be wrong but you didn't just get into a habitat and start your first day at 1000' on a mix
You had to take steps. So some courses are baby step and some are more ?????....manly!

I still think self evaluation is key. I know new student do not know what they do not know...
Exposure and experience to different conditions are great teachers.

See you topside! John

 

[Web Monkey]

I can't agree that the alternate second made buddy breathing unnecessary to learn. I think buddy breathing is a skill that should still be taught. Call me crazy, but I was taught that if I am donating my regulator to buddy breath, my hand never leaves the reg. I am sure that I will have a better chance of calming/keeping calm my OOA buddy if his hand is on top of mine holding my reg.

Actually, he'll be a lot calmer if he doesn't have to give it back at all. In fact, If someone gives me a reg and won't let go, my first thought is that he's going to try to take it back.

When I learned buddy breathing, we had to do a 500 yard swim buddy breathing. One of the assistant instructors had these nifty new double 40 tanks that everybody was oohing and aahing over. He asked if I wanted to use them for that night's class. I said of course. Well about half way through the buddy breathing drill, it starting getting harder to breathe. Fortunately that was in the day of the j valve and I pulled the rod and finished the drill. When I got out of the water the AI and the others were standing there laughing. I was a bit pissed, but it was the last time I got into the water to breathe air from a tank without knowing exactly how much air was in said tank. The owner of the doubles and the course instructor were both watching to see what my buddy and I would do when we ran out of air.

All these things are now preventable with equipment and training. Divers are regularly equipped with SPGs and are taught to check available gas before and during the dive. There's simply no reason to unexpectedly "run out" of air and there's no reason to have to share one second stage when you have two available.

Terry

 

[JKPAO]

Walter in no way do I think anything is perfect! If it was I would be on a beach right now!
I do like what you and Jim are doing to "fix" the lack of info in OW course. but some just want to get wet and not go past ? 30 ' just to look at fish. I think the Padi course can accomidate this person. Who is Moses anyway?
See You topside! John

 

[DCBC]

Yes DC I have a Padi; Naui; SSI and my commercial course that was over 640 hours. I have taken advanced courses just to get to dive cheaper! It was so much per dive and alot cheaper to take a course and I got more diving in. I do understand that it is not cookie cutter service every where. (with good reason)

I applaud how many instructors teach in other agencies, But I do not bash Padi because of their OW course was one way or another. I see it as different.

I know it is good to expose people to things outside the box but they should have a good idea what is expected. (verbal or read) An instructor can not expose a student to all challenages in a single course. It has to come with experience. I believe the best way to learn to dive is to dive!

I may be wrong but you didn't just get into a habitat and start your first day at 1000' on a mix You had to take steps. So some courses are baby step and some are more ?????....manly!

I still think self evaluation is key. I know new student do not know what they do not know... Exposure and experience to different conditions are great teachers.

See you topside! John

John, don't get me wrong. I don't think that anyone is suggesting that divers do not learn in steps. I just believe that what they need to know to dive safely in an area is not necessarily even known, let alone recognized by some certification agencies. Personally, I like the freedom that organizations like NAUI, SEI, ACUC, CMAS, etc. provide.

I feel that every diver should know how to swim. Not complete some drownproofing and swim with mask fins and snorkel, but swim. Some agencies agree with me, others don't. That's why I teach through the agencies I do, as an example.

If other instructors and their certification agency can live with themselves after certifying a non-swimmer, that's up to them. This doesn't meet my standard, so non-swimmers have to be trained elsewhere or first learn how to swim to pass my minimum standards. This isn't to make it difficult for the student, rather it's what I honestly believe is required from my experience. Other instructors have their own standard, while others just rubber punch their certification agency requirements.

A new diver doesn't need to be trained to the standards of a Navy Diver, nor a commercial saturation diver after the first training course. S/he does however have to be a functioning member of the buddy team and be able to dive with his buddy safely and independently on his first dive after certification. I don't accept, take a couple of more courses and we will show you how to rescue your buddy. To me that's like here's your driver's license, come back to take another course on what to do when you see a red light. The guy drives away...

 

[JKPAO]

John, don't get me wrong. I don't think that anyone is suggesting that divers do not learn in steps. I just believe that what they need to know to dive safely in an area is not necessarily even known, let alone recognized by some certification agencies. Personally, I like the freedom that organizations like NAUI, SEI, ACUC, CMAS, etc. provide.

I feel that every diver should know how to swim. Not complete some drownproofing and swim with mask fins and snorkel, but swim. Some agencies agree with me, others don't. That's why I teach through the agencies I do, as an example.

If other instructors and their certification agency can live with themselves after certifying a non-swimmer, that's up to them. This doesn't meet my standard, so non-swimmers have to be trained elsewhere or first learn how to swim to pass my minimum standards. This isn't to make it difficult for the student, rather it's what I honestly believe is required from my experience. Other instructors have their own standard, while others just rubber punch their certification agency requirements.

A new diver doesn't need to be trained to the standards of a Navy Diver, nor a commercial saturation diver after the first training course. S/he does however have to be a functioning member of the buddy team and be able to dive with his buddy safely and independently on his first dive after certification. I don't accept, take a couple of more courses and we will show you how to rescue your buddy. To me that's like here's your driver's license, come back to take another course on what to do when you see a red light. The guy drives away...

Point taken and agreed with!
See you topside! John

 

[Walter]

I do like what you and Jim are doing to "fix" the lack of info in OW course.

Setting up outside a manual is just wrong!(JMHO) Peolpe buy and read a manual and expect to be taught or informed and tested about what was in the manual. Not stuff that the instructor felt they should be taught or tested on.

I detect a conflict.

 

[Crush]

My basic-OW training was a total of 30 hours instruction time (in and out of the pool) at a cost of $315. Is this typical?

Back from lunch.

What was included? Classroom and pool time (I seem to recall about 8-10 hours of pool time, but I could be mistaken). The OW dives (four of them) were an additional $50, total. All rentals were included. All class materials were included. You had to purchase fins, a mask, and snorkel.

 

[FireInMyBones]

The manual does not hold the key to every piece of knowledge a new student needs to know. I wish that my manual would have been twice as thick.
As for my OW classwork, it was boring. I had covered all of it in the manual and all the classroom did was make sure we put the right answers down on our sheets. A 5 hour class in which I learned nothing more than I read in the manual made me sad.
There has to be external information...or a new and more in-depth manual. Consider it a weeding out of those who do not want to take the course seriously.

 

[Van Isle]

The market bears what the market bears. The minimum standards are very light, but so is the diving that the majority of divers do. The agencies always stress the "certified to dive in the same conditions under which you were taught" part, and it always gets blown away by the newly minted diver. Forgetting to check equipment, do a "review" when away from diving, checking SPG during a dive, going deep, going over head environment. These things are covered in OW courses. These failures are what kill.

It's analogous to hiking. If I wanted to go hiking, do I need a wilderness first aid course prior to tromping up my local hill? Do I need alpine skill? Crevasse rescue? No, but if the type of hiking I will do requires that, then so be it. And even then, there will still be guides who will take me up Everest without essential skills and time in.

People will get hurt in life, and at some point it is up to them to make their own - even if dangerous - decisions. You can't legislate stoopid.

VI

 

[Kingpatzer]

With PADI, the Instructor cannot test on anything that's not in the manual, nor can he withhold certification if the minimum PADI standards are met. This training just isn't sufficient everywhere.

I don't read the manual that way (though I've not passed an IE yet, so I'm not going to presume my reading is authoritative). Since mastery learninig is predicated on performance in the open water dives, the ability for a student to pass those skills in a location where the certifying waters are going to be the North Atlantic will have to have developed a higher level of skill than someone doing the same skills in a less extreme environment.

That means the course will likely be longer, have more confined water time, etc.

The skills would not change, but the abilities required to perform them would, and thus the course would have to change to accommodate that difference.

That said, I personally feel say that any instructor who would suggest a newly minted OW diver go dive in the North Atlantic on their own without gaining significant additional experience is highly irresponsible. There are some waters that simply are not suited to new divers.