The Philosophy of Diver Training

[Walter]

Given the explicit contentions presented that PADI standards require a diver to be granted a certificate when they are a lethal danger to themselves and others and present a statistically significant risk to themselves and others due to the "minimum standards" it follows as a logical conclusion that all PADI instructors who follow PADI standards are complicit in the creation of inadequate divers, as well as in the act of endangering others' lives. The conclusion which immediately follow that is precisely a comment about the morality of PADI instructors as a whole.

PADI standards are written in such a way as to make them difficult to understand as well as easy to miss various points. It is fairly common to see experienced PADI instructors disagree as to what is and what is not required.

It is fairly difficult for folks who are not PADI DMs, AIs, or instructors to get a copy of PADI standards.

Many students aren't very aware of the concept of agencies.

With that in mind, it's probably rare that a student has any idea what is required for certification. They only know what their instructor tells them. Most students, even those with poor instructors, think their instructor sits at the right hand of God. Instructors run their classes, adding in what they feel is important. If it's ever questioned, they can quite honestly say they did not require the additional skills, they merely asked their students to do it, they students did them and there were no issues.

 

[DCBC]

Perhaps now may be a good time to get the thread back on-track. As I have stated several times in previous posts, the focus of this particular thread is NOT the abilities or inabilities of any instructor group. It is the diver certification agency training philosophy.

There are many fine PADI instructors. The conversation is not what they do; it's what they are suppose to do from an agency perspective.

PADI standards are clear. They specify what the instructor is suppose to teach, what they may optionally teach and what they are prohibited from teaching. PADI liability insurance cover the instructor only for what is authorized by PADI without any variance.

We have discussed the PADI program and it would seem (from what I'm hearing) that it's adequate to prepare a diver to dive in vacation land. Although this may be debatable by some, the concern seems to be one over certifying them to dive in anything other than ideal conditions.

I could certainly post a poll on these questions, but in an effort to focus the discussion a bit, lets say that the PADI training philosophy is not adequately addressing the knowledge and skill-sets necessary for less than ideal environments. This certainly is a great concern to me, as I feel it's necessary to self-police our industry if it is to remain free of government regulation. As PADI is the largest of the world's diver certification bodies, I can't help but wonder if we are all looking at a train wreck about to happen.

What are the perspectives of others? What can / should be done? From my observations, it seems that many PADI instructors are often going outside the PADI standards to insure that the diver is given the necessary training. The students of other instructors are not as fortunate. Is this acceptable? Personally, I don't think an instructor should make-up for his agency.

 

[Kingpatzer]

PADI standards are written in such a way as to make them difficult to understand as well as easy to miss various points. It is fairly common to see experienced PADI instructors disagree as to what is and what is not required.

. . .



It is fairly difficult for folks who are not PADI DMs, AIs, or instructors to get a copy of PADI standards.

PADI standards are clear.

Well, that clears that up

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Again, I'm only going to relate to my personal experiences here ... but with respect to standards I'm not so sure they are clear. Not PADI's or anybody else's. I know that I've had several interesting discussions with course directors and other NAUI instructors over something in the NAUI standards that I felt was not clear ... and from reading various discussions in this and other forums over the years, seems to me that PADI standards aren't very much more concise than NAUI standards.

I've also noticed that the majority of this conversation is being conducted by instructors who represent other agencies than PADI ... although there are in some cases some past relationships with PADI that may or may not bear on current standards. With that in mind, it would be interesting to hear from someone who actually teaches for PADI ... preferably someone who's been doing it for a while and has some perspective not just on current standards, but the evolution of those standards over time.

Without that perspective, seems like what we're left with is assumptions based on what it looks like from the outside looking in ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[mdb]

PADI has been the single most profitable entity in diving. Their margins of profit are very high. They have the money and the momentum. Problem is, that now, and for the last several years, the new student count is way down.

We have fewer new divers who feel confident to dive in local waters and hence the word of mouth, which drives sales, even in this google/internet era is just not there.

You have first hand experience, thank you for your input. Jim Lapenta, Walter, and NWGD, and others, have made a lot of good contributions to this very useful thread. As stated before, it is nice to see this discussion in basic SCUBA. If new divers have 1st class instruction and learn to dive in their local waters we all benefit.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If new divers have 1st class instruction and learn to dive in their local waters we all benefit.

That right there is worth emphasizing ... I couldn't possibly be more in agreement ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Crush]

It is a meaningless exercise and does nothing to either support or refute your argument.

So far about 3% of respondents have self-identified as vacation-only divers while nearly 96% indicate that some of their dives are carried out locally. What I have learned from this exercise is (tongue planted firmly in cheek):

1. It is probably OK to bash vacation-only divers on SB since they probably won't read the post;
2. As per your post (emphasis added):

Serving the needs of the regular local divers is a great side business, but there aren't enough of them around here to keep all of the shops that are here open. If all we served were local divers, probably 2/3rds of the shops here would close.

You are living in the wrong area, my friend! Your local shops need to move to where the business is, and it certainly isn't where you live.

 

[mdb]

mpetryk: Your poll is a good one. I know it is spiked to the true believers, and all that. It does show that well trained divers do dive local a lot. The marginally trained, IMHO, drop out and do not refer others to dive. They may brag a bit at a cocktail party about being a diver, but they really are not.

The decline in standards has been a catastrophe for the dive industry. Some folks may have benefited, short term, many more have lost.

We have a great experience to share. I hope that this thread will help some prospective divers to take their time and choose the correct course/agency/instructor.

I really appreciate all the dedicated active instructors who are contributing to this discussion.

 

[JeffG]

mpetryk: Your poll is a good one. I know it is spiked to the true believers, and all that. It does show that well trained divers do dive local a lot. The marginally trained, IMHO, drop out and do not refer others to dive. They may brag a bit at a cocktail party about being a diver, but they really are not.

Which boils down to two things....

a) The newly certified diver feels competent enough to go diving on his/her own.

b) The newly certified diver has the vision to see diving as more than a holiday tour excursion. (Not everyone gets to dive locally in coastal waters)


(a) could be addressed by the increased standards. How much higher would they need to go??? I'm not sure. But it is different for every diver. If (just for example) the current rate is 25% feel that they are competent enough to dive on their own, how much do you increase the standards to raise the number to X%. (and I'm thinking that 100% is unattainable)

So what is an acceptable percentage? and what is an acceptable increase in standards? (the increase of standards will increase class/pool time, which leads to an increase in cost in time/money for the client)

At what point does the industry prices itself out of business?


(b) Can't be addressed by standards, but could be addressed with material supplied by local dive clubs, giving presentations to new students.

 

[Diver0001]

(a) could be addressed by the increased standards.
.

This is such a common misconception, even among instructors, some of them with decades of experience teaching, that it should be addressed.

*Standards* state what the diver should be able to do and to what level of competence.

For example, the OW course from most agencies says that the mask skill should be *ultimately* be done while swimming and neutrally buoyant.

PADI, to pick an example, I'm familiar with, splits it into several steps. Mask 1/2 flooded, Mask flooded, Mask off and Mask off while swimming.

the *goal* and intention of the standard is that students can take off their mask, swim for any length of time without it on and replace it. I think everyone here would agree that this goal is good.

That's the standard. Every single open-water student on the planet has to adhere to that. All good.

The second part of that, is "Mastery". Each skill in the course must be mastered. Again, using PADI as my model, they define this as fluid, repeatable and error-free. Again, something even the biggest cynic could nod at.

So where, exactly, is the rub? If a student *should* be able to take off their mask, swim any distance with it off and replace it, while swimming and do that fluidly, repeatedly and error free then we'd all make a little snoopy dance of joy and think that standards were perfect.

But that *IS* the standard.

That begs the question, of course, how it's possible that so many students are unable to meet that standard!

And that's where the system breaks down. QA.

QA in most agencies, including the biggest, looks at insurance issues. Ratios, protocol etc....

But QA does *not* evaluate if an instructor is teaching mastery to the level described. That is left to the instructor to decide..... which, of course, is a HUGE "fox guarding the hen house" issue.

And THAT, dear friends, is the biggest issue in diver training.

Standards are fine. I won't say perfect, but an instructor with the motivation and desire to give a *great* scuba course can do just that within the boundaries of standards. Even the lowest, blah blah. cynicism, hate, burn-in-hell standards that DCBC punches in the nose in every single post he makes.

The biggest issue in diver training is not *enforcing* standards.

Thanks for listening.

R..