The Philosophy of Diver Training

[MXGratefulDiver]

If all we served were local divers, probably 2/3rds of the shops here would close.

If all you served were vacation divers, eventually they would all close. And not a single one of them would be able to justify the expense of owning a compressor.

I think you need to talk to your LDS owner about the financial aspects of running a dive shop.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Cave Diver]

[hijack]Moderation concerns have been addressed here: Philosophy split discussion[/hijack]

 

[Kingpatzer]

Frankly, King ... until you travel around a bit and develop an understanding of the differences in local conditions between different regions around the country, I don't think you really know what you're talking about. By your own admission, you've "seen" the north Atlantic once. Have you ever been to California? Dived there? Florida? Dived there? Pacific Northwest? Dived there? Hawaii? Dived there? Those four places alone each present their own unique attractions and challenges ... and learning to dive in any one of them won't necessarily qualify you to dive in the others.

Sadly I'm not wealthy enough to manage to travel like that. So no. My dive vacations are the one's I can deals on through my LDS and tend to be quasi working things at typical warm-water destinations.

 

[Walter]

Sadly I'm not wealthy enough to manage to travel like that. So no. My dive vacations are the one's I can deals on through my LDS and tend to be quasi working things at typical warm-water destinations.

Many of us are in that boat, but we need to be aware of assumptions our experience may bring to discussions.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Sadly I'm not wealthy enough to manage to travel like that. So no. My dive vacations are the one's I can deals on through my LDS and tend to be quasi working things at typical warm-water destinations.

... and that's OK ... no disrespect for your experience intended. But until you can get some exposure to a variety of diving environments, it's difficult to put them in a proper perspective. Somewhat like the old tale of the three blind guys and the elephant ... you can only describe the parts you have personally touched.

It's a learning curve that takes a lot of people by surprise ... the first time I went to NorCal I was floored by what the new divers down there take for granted. I thought diving in Puget Sound was tough ... and in some respects it is ... but those guys and gals down there just learn to casually deal with conditions that, literally, knocked me on my arse ... despite the fact that I had tons more experience than they did.

And that pertains DIRECTLY to the discussion ... because a LOT of people do dive where they were trained, and that training needs to accommodate local conditions.

Cookie cutter classes that are chunked out in small bits simply don't do that. There's a lot that instructors routinely do to make up for that deficit, but in fact they are doing in IN SPITE of their agency requirements ... not because of it.

That's really rather the whole point of this conversation ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Kingpatzer]

. .. the first time I went to NorCal I was floored by what the new divers down there take for granted. I thought diving in Puget Sound was tough ... and in some respects it is ... but those guys and gals down there just learn to casually deal with conditions that, literally, knocked me on my arse ... despite the fact that I had tons more experience than they did.

Given the comments presented so far then, it must be a give that those divers were all non-PADI trained then right? After all, the contention that neither PADI standards nor instructors are sufficient for training divers to handle such conditions is more or less the central thesis of the last 30 pages.

Do all the PADI divers simply drown? None of them dive locally?

You state that those who make up the deficit are doing it in spite of their agency. So maybe it's the case that the majority of instructors in the region are violating standards, risking death by litigation, and are in imminent danger of being sanctioned by PADI?

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the underlying assumptions of those criticizing PADI are, if not wholly inaccurate, at least grossly over stated?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Given the comments presented so far then, it must be a give that those divers were all non-PADI trained then right? After all, the contention that neither PADI standards nor instructors are sufficient for training divers to handle such conditions is more or less the central thesis of the last 30 pages.

Do all the PADI divers simply drown? None of them dive locally?

No ... I wouldn't contend that at all. I'm the one who's been trying to keep this conversation away from agency-specific comments. Almost all my PADI specific comments in here are in response to things you've said. And in every case it was because I disagreed with your position ... which was not necessarily the same as disagreeing with PADI's position.

You state that those who make up the deficit are doing it in spite of their agency. So maybe it's the case that the majority of instructors in the region are violating standards, risking death by litigation, and are in imminent danger of being sanctioned by PADI?

Nothing's ever that simple.

But yes, I know several instructors who "interpret" the S&P's to suit their conscience with respect to what they teach their students, and accept that if something goes horribly wrong, they will not be supported by their agency. They weigh the benefits against the potential risks and make their decisions accordingly.

Kinda like most everything else associated with diving ...

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the underlying assumptions of those criticizing PADI are, if not wholly inaccurate, at least grossly over stated?

... and would it surprise anyone if they were? We all make assumptions based on our own perceptions and life experiences. Those, while valid, are usually not wholly accurate or inaccurate, but rather a conclusion based on the piece of reality that we are able to see.

Isn't that, really, the value of discussions like this one? It's a pity so many have to take it personally ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TechBlue]

Given the comments presented so far then, it must be a give that those divers were all non-PADI trained then right? After all, the contention that neither PADI standards nor instructors are sufficient for training divers to handle such conditions is more or less the central thesis of the last 30 pages.

Do all the PADI divers simply drown? None of them dive locally?

You state that those who make up the deficit are doing it in spite of their agency. So maybe it's the case that the majority of instructors in the region are violating standards, risking death by litigation, and are in imminent danger of being sanctioned by PADI?

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the underlying assumptions of those criticizing PADI are, if not wholly inaccurate, at least grossly over stated?

Nobody has said PADI instructors are bad as a whole, the reference has been to dumbed down certs from PADI as in the agency that puts divers out there with a certification where they could quite easily end up diving out of their limit due to insufficient information and training and the fact that resort dive operators may not necesarily follow the "restrictions" of the said dumbed down certs for people that "only go warm water diving and need a DM to supervise them"

Again to qualify for you KP, on face value the certs between the different agencies may seem equal to new divers but in truth they do not compare.

 

[Kingpatzer]

Nobody has said PADI instructors are bad as a whole, the reference has been to dumbed down certs from PADI as in the agency that puts divers out there with a certification where they could quite easily end up diving out of their limit due to insufficient information and training and the fact that resort dive operators may not necesarily follow the "restrictions" of the said dumbed down certs for people that "only go warm water diving and need a DM to supervise them"

Again to qualify for you KP, on face value the certs between the different agencies may seem equal to new divers but in truth they do not compare.

Given the explicit contentions presented that PADI standards require a diver to be granted a certificate when they are a lethal danger to themselves and others and present a statistically significant risk to themselves and others due to the "minimum standards" it follows as a logical conclusion that all PADI instructors who follow PADI standards are complicit in the creation of inadequate divers, as well as in the act of endangering others' lives. The conclusion which immediately follow that is precisely a comment about the morality of PADI instructors as a whole.

 

[TechBlue]

Given the explicit contentions presented that PADI standards require a diver to be granted a certificate when they are a lethal danger to themselves and others and present a statistically significant risk to themselves and others due to the "minimum standards" it follows as a logical conclusion that all PADI instructors who follow PADI standards are complicit in the creation of inadequate divers, as well as in the act of endangering others' lives. The conclusion which immediately follow that is precisely a comment about the morality of PADI instructors as a whole.

Only those that follow blindly without comprehension