Gas management terminology

What terminology and units do you use to describe breathing rate at the surface?

  • Respiritory Minute Volume (RMV), L/min or cu ft/min

    Votes: 3 9.4%
  • Respiritory Minute Volume (RMV), bar/min or psi/min

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Surface Consumption Rate (SCR), L/min or cu ft/min

    Votes: 4 12.5%
  • Surface Consumption Rate (SCR), bar/min or psi/min

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Surface Air Consumption (SAC), L/min or cu ft/min

    Votes: 21 65.6%
  • Surface Air Consumption (SAC), bar/min or psi/min

    Votes: 2 6.3%
  • Some combination of the above (please define in post)

    Votes: 2 6.3%
  • Other (please define in post)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    32

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I've used all 3 terms at any given point, but I have to say that I think I use SAC rate more while in verbal conversations. At any rate, I am always referring to ft3 per min at 1 ATA. I wish my original scuba education had been in metric. It looks like life would have been easier.
 
,<snip>. Any measure of gas consumption rate in terms of units of pressure over time I consider useless because it introduces unnecessary ambiguity.
During the dive, how does knowing what your SPG will read before actually checking it introduce "ambiguity" --if you understand your tank's rating factor and have a feel for your present workload breathing rate realtime on-the-fly? IMO, it's a very useful skill to develop (especially for overhead divers), because your primary reference tools happen to be at least a bottom depth/timer and a SPG in pressure units --i.e. used properly and with a vital understanding, you've got a more useful metric of units of pressure over time. . .

Refer to this excellent monograph on basic gas management calculations:
http://api.ning.com/files/KHeKOD-fw...pVsh/BattlefieldCalculationsDeliaMilliron.pdf
 
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I tend to use SAC even when it is not technically appropriate.

To explain why, let me give one or two my my famed far-flung analogies.

American literature and history has a famed individual whose name is Henry David Thoreau. Everyone pronounces his last name "thu-ROW." In my graduate studies, I learned that he would have pronounced it "THUR-owe." If I am in a mixed crowd and pronounce it properly, I will be corrected by someone who knows the popular mispronunciation, at which point I will have to correct the person who corrected me, coming across as a pompous ass, so I mispronounce it, too, to avoid the hassle.

Similarly, we Americans tend to use the French word forte to refer to a trait in which a person is strong. Just about everyone pronounces it "for-TAY," as if it were the past tense (forté) of some French verb (forter) rather than what it actually is, a feminine adjective which should be pronounced "fort." If you correctly say "fort," people will quietly chuckle at your lack of proper upbringing. I can't bring myself to say "for-TAY," so I just avoid the word.
 
During the dive, how does knowing what your SPG will read before actually checking it introduce "ambiguity"

The ambiguity of an SAC expressed in units of pressure over time is the absence of a measure of volume. If a diver says that he breathes at the rate of 2.5 psi/min he has not told us anything useful until we know what size tanks he is breathing from. The math is simple - no more complicated than freshman high school algebra. It is all doable in your head (or at least in mine). I find it simpler to reckon my gas volume in fractions of my total tank volume. For example if I am diving my LP95's, then I have 250 CF to start (at 3500 psi). At my breathing rate of .4 SCFM that is a bit over 600 minutes at 1ATA or 75 minutes at 230 feet. A one third rule gives me 25 minutes at depth. All this is planned beforehand. Checking my spg on the dive should show my gas being depleted at a rate such as to bring me to my 2/3 mark at my ascent time. I do not really need to do any complicated calculations on the dive, I can tell by spot checks if I am on track. For example, 12 minutes (half way) into the dive I should be at about 5/6 of my starting pressure or about 2900 psi. Note that these numbers are all approximations. You can only read an spg to +/- 100 psi and you can only measure your breathing rate to +/- 0.1 SCFM (if that).
 
The ambiguity of an SAC expressed in units of pressure over time is the absence of a measure of volume. If a diver says that he breathes at the rate of 2.5 psi/min he has not told us anything useful until we know what size tanks he is breathing from. The math is simple - no more complicated than freshman high school algebra. It is all doable in your head (or at least in mine). I find it simpler to reckon my gas volume in fractions of my total tank volume. For example if I am diving my LP95's, then I have 250 CF to start (at 3500 psi). At my breathing rate of .4 SCFM that is a bit over 600 minutes at 1ATA or 75 minutes at 230 feet. A one third rule gives me 25 minutes at depth. All this is planned beforehand. Checking my spg on the dive should show my gas being depleted at a rate such as to bring me to my 2/3 mark at my ascent time. I do not really need to do any complicated calculations on the dive, I can tell by spot checks if I am on track. For example, 12 minutes (half way) into the dive I should be at about 5/6 of my starting pressure or about 2900 psi. Note that these numbers are all approximations. You can only read an spg to +/- 100 psi and you can only measure your breathing rate to +/- 0.1 SCFM (if that).
My point is again (now stated three times), that if you understand your pressure per time rate is premised on your tank's rating, then there is no ambiguity.

For your example of LP95's at 230':
Your SCR of 0.4 SCFM translates to 11 litres/min*ATA
Your total tank rating for double LP95's is 30 litres/bar.
Therefore your pressure SCR rated for your double LP95's,
is 11 divided-by 30 which equals approximately 0.4 bar/min*ATA.

So at a depth of 230' or 69 meters (same as 7.9 ATA):
Your DCR will be 0.4 multiplied-by 7.9 equals 3.2 bar/min.
Hence for every minute of elapsed time, I expect the SPG
to decrease by 3.2 bar when at a depth of 230'/69m.

Thus in 10 minutes of nominal swimming at 230'/69m, I expect the SPG to be down 32 bar from the previous reading; in 10 more minutes, I expect the SPG to be down another 32 bar; in 5 more minutes after that, I expect the SPG to be down 16 bar from the previous reading --and now you're at your third's-turn pressure of 80 bar total delta.

Check: Your fill of 3500 psi is equivalent to 241 bar. One-third of 241 bar is approx 80 bar delta. Summing the above expected SPG time check readings at respectively 10min, 20min and 25min elapsed time at 230'/69m: 32 bar plus 32 bar plus 16 bar equals 80 bar total delta down. (As you stated above and is confirmed, your planned third's turn pressure in this example would be at the 25min mark).

This illustrates my point using your own example that there is no ambiguity in the use pressure units per time rate during the dive, provided that you understand that it is congruent upon your total tank rating of the cylinder(s) in use. . .and that using the metric system is far easier, more intuitive, and makes greater objective sense than you alluding to the arithmetic "doable all in your head, no more complicated than freshman high school algebra", with the cumbersome US Imperial System.
 
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SAC in units of cf per min.

SAC could be in liters or psi or bar per min too, just like RMV. No matter what term you use, the units either need to be stated or implied. If you use pressure per min you'll need to state the cylinder size as well.
 
SAC in litres/minute. As I'm in the metric world, I don't care about tank factors.
 
My point is again (now stated three times), that if you understand your pressure per time rate is premised on your tank's rating, then there is no ambiguity.

You are quite correct, the ambiguity is in the tank's rating but the ambiguity is there. Given only an SAC expressed in units of pressure over time there is an ambiguity. That is what I said and that is true. In order to eliminate the ambiguity one must know the volume of the tank(s) with which the SAC was calculated and also the volume of the tank(s) to be used on the planned dive. I prefer to eliminate the ambiguity by reckoning my SAC in terms of standard volume over time. You may prefer to do your calculations differently. I find your method more cumbersome and inviting of errors. Not everyone's minds work alike.
 
You are quite correct, the ambiguity is in the tank's rating but the ambiguity is there. Given only an SAC expressed in units of pressure over time there is an ambiguity. That is what I said and that is true. In order to eliminate the ambiguity one must know the volume of the tank(s) with which the SAC was calculated and also the volume of the tank(s) to be used on the planned dive. I prefer to eliminate the ambiguity by reckoning my SAC in terms of standard volume over time. You may prefer to do your calculations differently. I find your method more cumbersome and inviting of errors. Not everyone's minds work alike.
Fair enough Capndale, with all due respect. . .:D

Here's a little trick which only works with double LP95's, and I hope it makes things easier for you instead of introducing any more ambiguity:

A SPG gauge in bar units used in conjunction with a set of double manifolded LP95's will also show your remaining volume in cubic feet to a good approximation --same reading, same numbers, same scale and same one-to-one correspondence of bar transforming to cubic feet measurement. Hint: 28.3 litres is one cubic foot --see if you (and everyone else in this thread) can figure out how it's done:wink: . . .
 
Let's see..... there are about 14.1 psi to a bar,..... there are 2 tanks,..... there are 13 Leprechaun to a quandary........

Nah, screw tank factors.
 
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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