Respect for limits

[BioLogic]

Sabbath and I made a cavern diving trip to Florida this past week. A great experience; but one thing did surprise me. From here, and from other reading, I'd gotten the impression that cave divers were very meticulous about following safety rules.

However, quite a few of the cave divers -- including cave instructors, resort owners, and professional divers -- suggested we basically blow off the cavern diver certification restrictions: 'Ahh, this one is essentially a cavern; it's one tunnel and no way to get lost' (the map showed that one being 90 feet deep with two side rooms) ... 'The second room's really worth seeing; it's pretty much a cavern' (the entrance was 65 feet down and there wouldn't be ambient light in most of the room) ... 'If you just go to the gate there's not much trouble to get into' (the gate was over 200 feet in) ... and so forth.

We stuck to the card's restrictions, and we're going to continue doing that until we can take the next class. If nothing else it's a great motivation to take the Intro class. What I'm wondering is if those attitudes are common or we got a skewed sample; and what's your opinion on these kinds of attitude?

 

[Kingpatzer]

Good for you!

 

[AfterDark]

Sabbath and I made a cavern diving trip to Florida this past week. A great experience; but one thing did surprise me. From here, and from other reading, I'd gotten the impression that cave divers were very meticulous about following safety rules.

However, quite a few of the cave divers -- including cave instructors, resort owners, and professional divers -- suggested we basically blow off the cavern diver certification restrictions: 'Ahh, this one is essentially a cavern; it's one tunnel and no way to get lost' (the map showed that one being 90 feet deep with two side rooms) ... 'The second room's really worth seeing; it's pretty much a cavern' (the entrance was 65 feet down and there wouldn't be ambient light in most of the room) ... 'If you just go to the gate there's not much trouble to get into' (the gate was over 200 feet in) ... and so forth.

We stuck to the card's restrictions, and we're going to continue doing that until we can take the next class. If nothing else it's a great motivation to take the Intro class. What I'm wondering is if those attitudes are common or we got a skewed sample; and what's your opinion on these kinds of attitude?

I guess those people (cave instructors, resort owners, and professional divers)don't know what they are talking about.

 

[knowone]

Good for you!

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

BioLogic.

Good call. One of the hardest things sometimes is to resist the temptation of a dive you know you really are not ready for.... especially when others who should know better are telling you it is "ok" to do.

Well done.

Best wishes.

 

[Scott]

It's easy to get caught in the 'trust me' lure. Way to stick with your training. :cool3:

 

[tstormdiver]

Yes, good job sticking to your limits! I was talked into excedeing my training limits (I was not trained in overhead environments at all) at Vortex Springs a few years ago, & it nearly cost me very dearly. That lesson was definitely learned (also after a butt chewing from my instructor). I am now recieving the training I should have had in the first place. Even being at Intro level, I will not excede my limits, unless my instructor is working with me. There was just recently a fatality at Peacock Springs that was likely the end result of divers diving beyond their limits. Any time you excede your training & comfort level limits, you stack the deck of odds against you. As my instructor puts it, " When you excede your limits,you put a bullet in the chamber, you spin the chamber, you point the gun at your head & pull the trigger". Will you land on one of the empty chambers or not?

 

[Cave Diver]

However, quite a few of the cave divers -- including cave instructors, resort owners, and professional divers -- suggested we basically blow off the cavern diver certification restrictions: 'Ahh, this one is essentially a cavern; it's one tunnel and no way to get lost' (the map showed that one being 90 feet deep with two side rooms) ... 'The second room's really worth seeing; it's pretty much a cavern' (the entrance was 65 feet down and there wouldn't be ambient light in most of the room) ... 'If you just go to the gate there's not much trouble to get into' (the gate was over 200 feet in) ... and so forth.

Based on your description, I'm guessing that you may have been diving at Vortex? If so, that would go a long way towards explaining the "advice" you got.

In my experience, most cave divers would tell you exactly the opposite to what you encountered. Stick to your limits, stick to your training. Perhaps some more details about where you were diving would give some insight?

 

[sabbath999]

I do not think the person the advice was from was an actual "owner" of any facility, but the person did work for the (unnamed) facility.

Yes, we did dive Vortex but it was not the only commercial place we dove, and we won't be singling anybody out.

However, what she is talking about isn't just one person... it was SEVERAL people, including experienced full-cave divers. It occured at every dive site we were at except Jackson Blue (since we were about the only divers there).

Here's an example. We were talking about the next day's dive, Morrison, with a full cave diver who came over and started chatting. He said to make sure to go to the second room to see all the eels. We told him that was beyond our training limits (that room get 20-30 feet below where we are supposed to be, and is much further in penetration than we are supposed to go).

We were not diving cave rigs, we were diving our "normal recreational" rigs (which are, I admit, not what most recreational divers wear, bp/w, bungied backup second state, seven foot hose primaries, hogarthian setup, etc) but we didn't have caver lights, just what will eventually be our "backup" lights. Sure enough, in the upper cavern of Morrison, my primary light (an LED light)'s batteries died on me, at about the time I would have been out of the light zone and at 90 feet in the Morrison current. While I have no doubt I could have handled that (permanent line, buddy within sight with good vis, spare light at hand, etc) what would have happened if there had been a silt out, if the permanent line broke (it is EXTREMERLY frayed and needs to be replaced BTW), or whatever.

In fact, I would not have trusted that permanent line in Morrison to hold, I probably would have run my own (it's bad).

Anyway, because it died in the upper side chamber, where there is LOTS of light, I simply thumbed the overhead environment part of the dive and we went on into the spring pond instead.

What struck me, at least, most about the SEVERAL people who were saying "trust me" is, with the exception of one of them who was doing a deco stop in the cavern where we were diving, none of them had actually seen us dive. They had no idea if we actually knew what we were doing or were clowns.

 

[TSandM]

Well, I think the unfortunate thing is that some of the fatalities and incidents we have seen over the last five years prove that there are a lot of folks out there that don't respect limits or rules or follow their own training, let alone encourage others to follow theirs. Look at the thread I posted a couple of years ago for someone else, about the guy who, IIRC, was a cave instructor, and took two friends into a relatively unfamiliar cave without running line and got them lost.

The leap from cavern to cave is a good-sized one, and I think you were very wise to observe your limits. The metric I use, when I'm contemplating something that might be dubious, is "What would the internet pundits say about me if I died doing this?"