Why do we hate the Air2?

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Well if you are doing an emergency ascent I would think you are vertical,not swimming around horizontally. And If you grab with left arm you can still see your wrist mounted computer and right hand is free for shoulder dump or inflator. Allowing you to vent and kick up slowly for a controlled ascent.

Not picking on you, just quoted you as an illustration of the cultural divide here - virtually everything you mention makes "those people" cringe so hard their eyes cross.

(personally, I'm all for informed individual choice...you're diving as you were taught, so good one on you!)


All the best, James
 
I've not seen a lot of AAS failure (whether regular of combined), but I have seen a lot of LPI failures.

Right. So to date we have no data that supports the conclusion that Octo-Inflators are any more failure-prone. That's consistent with my observations as well.
 
Being in trim has many other benefits than simply keeping your fin tips off the bottom

And during an OOA situation where one diver is breathing off your rig, those benefits would be what? (For crying out loud)
 
Just pull the shoulder dump.

I don't like that solution for one reason - the shoulder dump is typically a very imprecise method of dumping air to maintain neutral buoyancy on ascent. This, in turn, adds more complications to an already stressful situation, where the ascending divers (donor and victim) will struggle to maintain matching neutral buoyancy. As the relative buoyancy of the divers differ, maintaining contact becomes more difficult and increasingly adds tasking to their already over-loaded psychological states.

When considering the issue of AIRII for emergency ascents, I like to base my perpectives on a worst-case scenario. That worst case being two relatively novice divers, without expert buoyancy control, who are already at a psychological panic threshold.

If we base this discussion on the premise that the divers concerned are at an expert level, then many of the arguements presented are largely irrelevant. Many of those contributing on this thread could handle an emergency air-sharing ascent with ease, using any configuration, under any circumstances.

But divers of this calibre aren't the ones likely to ever actually run out of air.... it's the novice divers who typically make that mistake... and they are the ones who need an effective, simple, foolproof and minimal stress/loading method of sharing air when faced with their worst case scenario.


On the VERY rare occasion you may have to use it and donate your primary, it won't breathe as smoothly for the 10 or 15 minutes it might take you to get to the surface. If this is your biggest gripe then you have nothing to worry about.

Again... this is written from the perspective of a seasoned diver.

For the average novice diver, the culmination of an OOA emergency (and that is how many novices will view it... as a near-death experience), with added task loading of applying their half-forgotten training, in stressful close proximity and physical contact with their buddy, whilst handling an ascent using unfamiliar methods (dump valves)... will put them at the outer limits of their psychological stress management threshold.

An 'inconsequential' issue like increased breathing resistance may be the straw that breaks the camels' back... the one extra unfamiliar factor that causes the emergence of panic.


That's just poor gear management. Anything can dangle if it's not secured properly. Even a "standard octo."

Yep.... and that 'poor gear managment' is typical for most divers.

...as is a lower psychological stress threshold.

...as is a more severe perspective of the inherent dangers of an OOA situation.

...as is a lack of ingrained familiarity with their equipment.

...as is a lack of instinctive and precise buoyancy control.

...as is an inability to tolerate any type of air deprivation

(the list goes on...)

Just grab BCD's and make a normal ascent. It's easy.

....for you.

I don't dislike AIRII because I feel it poses dangers for me.

I don't use one because I don't like the aesthetics and functionality of them... but I don't see any particular personal risk in it.

That said, when considering their general usage, I apply my experience of dealing with the lowest common denominator standard of novice divers and consider the potential risks that it may pose in the worst case scenario to divers of that skill/ability and with that level of psychological threshold.

In that respect, it does not bode well....

I look around the dive boats now and see more integrated octos than regular inflators now. They're becoming the standard.

In your region. I wouldn't share that perspective based on what I've seen in Europe, the Middle East and Asia.

what? It will "destroy swimming." Please, for the love of all that is good, explain that one to me.

Just sit in on an OW class and enjoy the fun of watching novice divers conduct short air-sharing swims. The concept of reduced mobility and interference from having a buddy in forced close proximity is easy to grasp once you've seen how novice divers cope in those circumstances.
 
How are you going to vent your bc if you have to use it? Its in your mouth. Are you going to take it out and raise it up every time you need to vent? What about the fact that its right in your face. Are you going to vent all the air in your face?

The ones I've seen lately had an option to vent on the shoulder dump by simple pull.
 
I dont like them simply because, its combining to simple devices into one complex device. The more complex things get, the more they seem to fail.

When you open one to work on, they are dirt simple. Most second stages are easy to work on. The trick is getting the cracking pressure correctly adjusted and that is not the long suit of alternate airs. But I look at it this way, if I have to use one, it will not be for that long and I probably have other things to worry about than a hard breathing reg.

BTW, both me and my wife had air2's on the rental bc's when we did our OWC. They trained us to use both the air2 and the octo on an OOA.
 
Because their air source II just doesn't look right on a BP/W? :rofl3::rofl3::rofl3::rofl3:

I think it looks perfect on my singles BP&W rig with 5' primary. I've used it for a few years now and even needed to play donor a few months ago. All went well and I didn't find it hard to deal with OOA diver even though he was a newbie and on his first night dive. Mostly a credit to the fact that he stayed well composed and didn't try to bolt to the surface.

I've noticed a number of divers using the combination of a singles BP&W and integrated octo. It plays well with our AI wireless computers. Yep it's a streamline kit that works well for most OW dive profiles.
 
I think it looks perfect on my singles BP&W rig with 5' primary. I've used it for a few years now and even needed to play donor a few months ago. All went well and I didn't find it hard to deal with OOA diver even though he was a newbie and on his first night dive. Mostly a credit to the fact that he stayed well composed and didn't try to bolt to the surface.

I've noticed a number of divers using the combination of a singles BP&W and integrated octo. It plays well with our AI wireless computers. Yep it's a streamline kit that works well for most OW dive profiles.

The above post and many other posts defending the AIr2 use simliar language such as although it does not breathe as well. The donee was new, but we got though it. It's a kit that works well for most OW dive profiles.

Venting without removing the mouth piece from mouth is posiable with pull dump that introduces a major failure point(O-ring & lots of plastic))and prevents a preferred horizonal ascent. The only attribute that made any sence was dr. bill who simply stated that he likes the buttons better than their smaller counterparts on conventional power inflators. Ringing endosrements, they are not...
 
And during an OOA situation where one diver is breathing off your rig, those benefits would be what? (For crying out loud)

  • Ever dive in current? A vertical diver presents more surface area to the current. If on a line it will be much harder to hang on if you're vertical. If not on a line ascending vertically will cause you to end up much further away than if horizontal into the current. Big problem if the boat you're returning to is tied-in.
  • Suppose the point at which there is a problem is away from the ascent point, requiring a swim to the exit point/up line before surfacing? Do you want to swim horizontally or vertically?
  • Suppose both of the two things listed above happen at the same time?
  • There's evidence/school of though that suggests that safety/deco stops are best conducted horizontally from an off-gassing perspective since the entire body is at the same depth, and the same depth as your computer/depth gauge (At 15ft, a vertical 6ft tall diver can have a 25-33% depth difference between their head and toes. Do you want a 33% "margin of error" on a safety stop?)
  • Availability of butt dump on BCD/wing to vent gas on ascent, which would be more than handy in an OOG situation. (Especially if you have an Air2 in your mouth.)

Some will say those are marginal/minimal/theoretical benefits, but I'd counter with the fact that they are no more marginal/minimal/theoretical than the "one less hose" benefit.

Suppose
 
The above post and many other posts defending the AIr2 use simliar language such as although it does not breathe as well. The donee was new, but we got though it. It's a kit that works well for most OW dive profiles.

Venting without removing the mouth piece from mouth is posiable with pull dump that introduces a major failure point(O-ring & lots of plastic))and prevents a preferred horizonal ascent. The only attribute that made any sence was dr. bill who simply stated that he likes the buttons better than their smaller counterparts on conventional power inflators. Ringing endosrements, they are not...

Scott since you decided to quote me and then highlight selected segments from all over the place I take on your trash talk straightforwardly. First you highly does not breathe as well Other on this thread have already stated that having them breath as well as any average mainstream second stage is just a matter of having them set properly to do so. I can tell you that is a factual statement as I have both mine and my wifes set to breath as well as my pony bottle reg which is a non-adjustable second stage reg. I wouldn't ask any of these to breathe as well as a user adjustable second stage. Maybe the next gen of integrated octo will be user adjustable but I don't think that is necessary. Breathing quality can be adjusted to be adequate on the majority of models available today.

As for donee was new but we got through it This statement cut to the core of it. The donee was new but the donor was experienced and practiced. No matter the choice staying calm, having training and experience is what really makes the difference. Also the most experienced diver may not be able to handle a panicked diver regardless of the gear choice. In extreme it may be safer to allow a panicked diver to nearly drown and perform recessitation on the surface.

And you final highlight ... It's a kit that works well for most OW dive profiles. Just as a wing with 60 lbs lift wouldn't be used for diving a a tropical reef but could be the integrated Octo is best used for certain configurations. It is a great solution for most OW dive profiles but each diver should be confortable in their gear selection. They should be aware of its design and use limitations and most of all if it fits their needs.

When a diver states they feel they can not turn their head while using one then the proper course of action is trying a longer BC hose and/or a more flexible or longer inflator hose if this doesn't resolve their problem then the standard octo may be a better choice for them.

Venting without removing it from your mouth is possible in a number of ways dependant on your BC configuration. As mentioned in this thread the pull dump in the BC elbow if equipped with one. Some BCD have a pull dump in the other shoulder also. Nearly every BC has a rear/lower pull dump which can be used if you are in a horizontal position. With practice a horizontal position can even be maintained on a short primary hose during a nice slow ascent. Even with the integrated in your mouth while in a heads up position you can just press the vent button half way and vent the BCD while exhaling gently and release the button to purge and finish your exhale.
 

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