Why can't you make a living as an Instructor?

[fjpatrum]

I'm quire sure that I'm not the only person here with a graduate level education....I certainly hope not. This discussion wasn’t intended to be about qualifications or experience related to instructing, it was about the economics of instructing and why it is virtually impossible to earn a living as an instructor. But since you digress; let me beg to differ with your statement. Indeed……an advanced education, along with REAL experience, knowledge, and skills certainly DO make one a better instructor. Are you suggesting that someone who LACKS in these aforementioned attributes would make a better instructor than one who actually has them ? That is ludicrous.

Just because someone is educated doesn't make them a good instructor or teacher. As has been said, there are plenty of brilliant people in the world who couldn't teach their way out of a paper bag.

Furthermore, you mention proudly that PADI requires someone to have logged 100 dives before they can become “qualified” as an instructor.

Yes, that makes these instructors "qualified" according to PADI. That is who is making the determination. You, as a consumer are further able to determine for yourself whether you think they are qualified.

I don’t consider someone with 100 dives as being highly experienced…..far from it. And it depends on the kind of diving of which that 100 dives consisted. Was it really 100 dives….or was it 1 Dive conducted 100 times ? PADI evidently never cared much about that, and unfortunately, all of the other training agencies have followed suit. I know quite a few “instructors” who have made no more than 150 dives all in the same quarry, and who have never been on a boat. I don’t consider them to be terribly knowledgeable.

I don't think anyone is arguing the point that 1 dive done 100 times makes someone qualified. You're taking extreme examples as some sort of reasonable argument to support your case but it doesn't work that way. Yes many, maybe most, instructors being qualified now have fewer dives than many of us would like (me included). That's very different than them being completely unprepared because they've only dived in one quarry. Sure it's possible, but I highly doubt it's the norm. People who want to become instructors typically try to travel at least a little bit for their diving.


Until the early 1980s, NAUI and YMCA required individuals to have logged AT LEAST 250 dives, AFTER attaining the Advanced Diver certification and specialties in Rescue, and Night diving, in addition to having earned certification from Red Cross as a professionally certified Lifeguard (then itself a 2-week training course); along with advanced first aid and CPR; all as prerequisites to participating in an ITC (instructor training course). These prerequisites are no longer required. In addition, they required that some quantity of those logged dives were OCEAN dives, with several being at night, low visibility, etc. ITC’s then would last at least 6 weeks, (8 weeks if you had weekends off), and during which one could expect to do another 50 or so dives in rather adverse conditions during the ITC. Today, it’s no longer called “Instructor Training”……..it is instead called an IQC (Instructor Qualification Course). Qualifying someone, and Training someone, are two very different things. These IQC’s now last about 7 or 8 days, and a participant is unlikely to do more than 10 dives during that time, half of them likely in a swimming pool. Instructors aren’t TRAINED any longer….they are simply “validated” in accordance with a set of standards that are nothing compared to what they were 2 decades ago. 100 dives ?? So What ? I certainly wouldn’t allow someone with that level of education, experience, and “training” teach my child, my wife, or anyone I care about how to dive.

My point from my earlier “diatribe” (as another poster so eloquently called my comments), were simply to state the FACTS, which have led to the current BROKEN economic model that is dive instructing, in that the training agencies have intentionally DUMBED DOWN, ALL of their training standards at every level, including instructor training; so that today ANYBODY who can inhale, exhale, and write a check for the fee, can get an instructor rating; so there are simply WAY TOO MANY INSTRUCTORS. I’m sorry if my telling an UNPOPULAR TRUTH “hurts your feelings”, but MOST (that means more than 50%) of instructors and dive-masters who are certified nowadays are marginally competent at best, and I wouldn’t hire them to clean my boat hull. And I’ll say it again…. 100 dives logged, does not necessarily make someone competent to be an instructor, charged with the health, well being, and safety of people venturing underwater on compressed air. In accordance with your previous statement, I would be particularly suspicious of such an in-experienced instructor who also lacks formal education.

And I'll say it again... 100 dives logged does not necessarily make someone incompetent to be an instructor. Experience is great but experience, whether you like it or not, can't always be measured in numbers. I'm a complete newb. I have about 20 dives. So far I've done several night dives, several boat dives, a couple of drift dives, some in a quarry with low viz, shore dives in mild surf and dealt with several "emergencies" underwater such as free flows, blown BCDs etc. At this rate, by the time I have enough dives to qualify as an instructor (which I have no interest in doing), I'll have dived in almost all of the non-tech type environments you can come up with because I think variation is the key to actually being a good diver. If you just looked at my numbers though, you'd assume I haven't done anything and have no experience. You'd be wrong. Sure, I don't have a lot of experience but I have more than my numbers would imply.

Here’s a REAL LIFE story for you to reinforce my point: Several years ago, I went on a “fun” charter dive to the artificial reef - Oriskany off Pensacola, FL. Aboard the dive boat was a newly minted PADI instructor in his early 30s. He was a nice enough guy, so after later discussion with him I learned that he had logged all of 115 dives (fitting exactly the category of “instructor” you mentioned). He had his first 4 students with him on our trip, a family who were earning their “advanced open water” certs. The 16 year-old daughter was the one with the least experience, so our heroic “instructor” made her his buddy for their “training dive”. She was equipped with a steel 100 tank, while our highly “qualified” PADI instructor (twice her size) dove an AL-80. His poor choices in training sites and equipment notwithstanding; he further allowed this girl to conduct the dive wearing just a bikini. Anyone care to comment on the value of instructors having REAL OFFSHORE EXPERIENCE here?

Most of the rest of this story I learned from the “instructor” himself, since I only observed them near the end of their dive…..so I’m NOT making this up. While diving around the upper structure of the wreck at a depth of about 75 feet, the so-called “instructor” realized he was about to run out of gas. He immediately began taking his “student” up the mooring line (rather quickly I might add) and only made it to about the 50 foot level before he sucked his last breath from his tank. She was evidently as poorly trained as he was, and lacking a proper pre-dive briefing, she didn’t understand his hand signals to share air. He began groping for her octopus, but being a bikini-clad teenager she was taken aback assuming he was attempting instead to fondle her nubile breasts……..so she pushed him away. Bear in mind that the current at Oriskany on the mooring line on this day was just over 1.5 kt., which would blow even Michael Phelps off the mooring line, so if either of them had let go of the mooring…..it’s bye bye Charlie……25 miles off shore. In a bikini, how long do you think she’d last ? Can you spell HYPOTHERMIA ? Anyway……Desperate, ---- our highly-experienced 115-logged dives –“ instructor” ---- grabbed her again and finally managed to wrest from her the octopus which was UNDER her waist strap, and he finally was able to start taking air. It was at this point that I came upon them during my own ascent, and saw wide-eyed panic in both of their eyes, and just that moment the girl let go and got blown off of the mooring line and started waving like a flag in the wind, suspended by the octopus regulator hose, whose second stage end was clenched in the teeth of our “highly qualified” instructor with his 115 logged dives…..…..who then couldn’t even manage to rope her back in by the hose of the reg since he couldn’t let go of the mooring lest they both be lost in the current. I wound up pulling her back to the mooring line so she could grab on for the rest of their safety stop. He is extremely fortunate that the mouthpiece of the regulator didn’t pop off of its spout, or he might have drowned, and she would have gone drifting out to sea, 25 miles off-shore in nothing but a bikini, with a half-boat load of divers still on the bottom. I am NOT MAKING THIS UP, or EMBELLISHING any detail THIS STORY ONE BIT.

Fortunately, they managed to then regain their composure, calm down, and then make their way to the 15-foot safety stop on their own accord. This could have ended VERY BADLY.

Read this board a bit more and you'll find plenty of stories like this. I would bet my paycheck that they're not all new instructors having these issues with poor decision making, or even inexperienced divers. Everyone makes mistakes. How you deal with them is what matters. Obviously this instructor dealt with them poorly, but that's not necessarily JUST because he is inexperienced. Of course it was a factor, but it may not have been the root cause.

To get back on topic…..do you REALLY think that is in the best interests of the future of this sport, to continue diminishing the standards of training and qualification; JUST so Diving can be CHEAP and Affordable for ANYONE ? Why should it be CHEAP and as you say…. “affordable” for anyone ? Why should REAL instructors accept being paid NOTHING to provide a quality and SAFE standard of training? These are only rhetorical questions.

I am simply saying what NEEDS TO BE SAID, even it if is an unpopular TRUTH. Diving Training SHOULD NOT be CHEAP, and Instructors should start having a little self-respect and STOP giving away their skills and training for nothing like a bunch of cheap hookers . As other people have stated in this thread……Golf and Tennis pros earn a lot more than SCUBA instructors, and if you were paying attention to the story above… THIS IS NOT GOLF, or TENNIS, OR BOWLING. People DO DIE and are seriously injured while Diving. Have you yourself ever witnessed a fatal diving accident ? I have. It is NOT pretty. And Trivializing the risks, DUMBING down the training, and MAKING IT CHEAP, is the WORST thing that has happened to this sport in its entire history.

I actually 100% agree with your view that training should not be cheap even though I wouldn't have gotten into diving if I'd have had to pay $1000 just for the training. But I'm the kind of person who thinks the class is just the start of your education, not the entirety of it. Fortunately I have a lot of hobbies. Unfortunately that means I have to split my time and money between them to actually enjoy them. That means it's important for me to get the most out of my dollars, which means I shop almost entirely on price for most of my diving equipment/education. I understand that I'm likely not getting the best education but I supplement with a lot of reading here and elsewhere and I'm trying to find good, experienced divers who I can buddy up with and learn from as often as possible. As it turns out, though, I seem to have gotten a reasonable OW course (the only one I've taken so far) for my $300. Certainly not as comprehensive as it could have been but I apparently got a lot of stuff that isn't taught very much these days.

People deserve to be paid for their time, whether they're instructors, DMs or garbage collectors. They deserve a reasonable salary but the simple fact is significantly less people will dive if the costs are raised. As I said before, without all the divers like me (who couldn't or wouldn't have paid $1k for OW) this industry wouldn't be an industry and folks like you, who've made a career of teaching simply wouldn't have had that option. Is it better? I don't know, but I think more divers means more opportunity for folks to make careers of diving and I see that as a good thing.

The training agency executives, and live-aboard dive travel industry people have made their careers out of trivializing the risks associated with diving, and now they’re even “certifying” 10-year olds. Would any of you REALLY put your young 10 year old child under the care and authority of an under paid, under qualified, un-professional, and maybe even UN - EDUCATED so-called “instructor” ? ….. all in the name of “making diving affordable for everyone” and getting as many people as possible into this sport.

Just because EVERYBODY WANTS to call themselves a scuba instructor….doesn’t mean that just ANYBODY should actually be one.

No, not just anybody should be an instructor. I think we just have different ways of determining who should be. You seem to use numbers as a simple method where others look at the whole person and make their determinations individually.

 

[k ellis]

k, I also agree with much of what you say (making me a wuss perhaps). Maybe Instructor course should require 200 dives. They changed DM entry to 40 from 20. Both seem way too few. Maybe my sympathizing with Doriadiver11 is because he speaks of how things should be. Oversaturation: Has been the case with musicians for many decades. Scuba instructors (in PCB): maybe a union would keep the price at $70 instead of $50--maybe not. Only worth what clients will pay--for sure--what will Madonna make for the half time show Sunday? America changing--yes. In the mid '80s people who worked their entire lives were being phased out by the tech. revolution. Now my step daughter beats the bushes to find work in the computer world despite having a degree. Minimum wage for all of us eventually--possibly, with the world becoming one economy and integrated markets. "I wouldn't want to be starting out in life nowadays"--oh wait, that's what they said in 1972 when I was 18. Only thing I really question is your being a pro because you're courteous to those wanting to dive. "Professional" is a word I kind of dislike. One meaning is someone who gets paid for what they do and usually makes a living at it. Another "stereotype" is Doctor, Lawyer, Dentist...people doing good things (lawyer?) and getting pretty big bucks. Another definition is those with a degree. During my career teaching we were called professionals--I guess that means people with college degrees working as unionized public servants making half what some of the local miners make. My brother-in-law, an engineer who didn't finish college worked for the mine and made over 100K. So in the scheme of things, where does that put a dive instructor? Oh, I'm not sure about your not wanting to turn away anyone because of their financial situation. We do that all the time in out Western World. That it how businesses grow. Not sure if it's right or not, but that's capitalism (we know what the alternative is--er was). To further play devil's advocate--If you were a shop owner and someone could only afford half the OW fee (or couldn't afford any amount), am I safe to assume you would turn them away? It's a pandora's box these days. I guess all we can do is hope the Giants win....(we watch despite the outrageous money they make--but as you say, they get what the market will bear).

Professional does have more then one meaning but there has to be a combination of all to trully be a professional. As another mentioned earlier would you want to go to a class and listen to someone talk about "how back in the old days life was good and I made tons of money by doing this a certain way Now I have to resort to teaching this dull course" or would you rather go to a facility and look around and see a good clean facility and every one smiles when you walk in? They are both professionals but one IS professional while being a professional and the other is being salty while being a professional. There are more then one thing that goes into being a professional.

As to your question of if a person could not pay. In MOST cases I would say if it did not make any money at all then no but I would suggest ways to save up for it and work with them until they were able to do so. I would not take a loss on it because then I would go out of business. The problem is though I am not an elite person and dont plan to be. Imagine if you lost your job and with it you lost all your gear. In this economy we would take it a step further and say you can not find a job but then you heard about an excellent dive just a few miles from your house. Would you want someone to reject you and the only thing you could do is learn about it from your friends and never see it first hand.

Call me out of the ordinary and thats fine honestly but I just believe in helping fellow men out (Not living life for them) but helping those who are willing to help themselves. If a person goes to work everyday and struggles to put food on the table and is not out begging or stealing then I do believe they too are entitled to at least enjoy some life.

A union would be nifty as it would set a base but honestly unions today are fighting for their very existence too as companies are finding way to undercut them and do away with them. As I said earlier its really in everyones best interest to prepare for the worst because those who think they are superior financially may find their self going down hill with everyone else. Its not looking good in America and if anyone does fall then I hope they remember how they felt things should be priced high and they see what its like to want things and not reach them.

 

[TSandM]

The economics of diving actually fascinates me, because I constantly compare it to my other sport, which is dressage (a form of horse riding). Dressage instructors in the Seattle area earn between $40 and $75 an hour to teach private lessons. Visiting instructors with special credentials can charge -- and GET -- up to $300 an hour. Dressage trainers rarely have school horses, so the minimum investment a student has to make is to find a horse to half-lease, which will run in the neighborhood of $300 a month -- or a horse to buy, which will pretty much START around $5K. Saddles are 2K, bridles 2 to 400, and a set of good riding boots is $400 and up. Yet we have a whole RAFT of riding instructors who are making a living at teaching and training horses.

But an OW instructor gets $50 a student for an OW class, that runs 12 hours of classroom, 9 hours of pool, and two about eight hour days at the dive site. In the cast of the class my husband is finishing up, that's $350 for more than 35 hours of work. That's a little more than McDonald's wages. And why can the dive shops do this? Because the supply of people who want to teach diving is great enough that shops don't HAVE to pay any more than that to get people to do the work. Of course, this results in the enthusiastic and relatively new diver going on to instructor, teaching for a couple of years, burning out, and leaving instruction (and sometimes the sport). But there are plenty coming behind to fill the void.

Teaching diving, to the relatively new diver, looks like a GREAT way to get to dive a lot and get paid for it. The reality of the job is different. Teaching is not diving, except that you are underwater, breathing compressed gas. It's not relaxing and you have little time to enjoy your surroundings. Teaching where we are can involve long periods in very cold water, and often a lot of work with fairly heavy equipment.

So why can riding instructors make a living, when diving instructors work for peanuts? In part, I think it's because there is an external validation of riding instructors. Most people who teach and train also compete; people who are interested in learning can look at the competition records and see who's winning, and make the (sometimes erroneous) assumption that someone who is winning classes knows what she is doing. In addition, the time required to LEARN to perform at the higher levels is significant, and many people never make it that far. There is no such selection process for diving instructors. Although the analogy probably won't mean much to most people here, our diving instructors are "training level" divers -- they've demonstrated mastery of the basic skills of diving, but an instructor cert requires little refinement or polish. If you required a basic technical certification or cave cert as a prerequisite to instructor training, the supply would certainly drop -- but the quality of instructors might improve.

And to someone arguing that 100 dives is an adequate prerequisite for instructing . . . I think a lot of people who have 100 dives feel as though they have acquired a good bit of experience. When they look back from 1000, they'll smile indulgently at their prior selves

 

[endurodog]

As with so many debates about training on SB the arguments are myopic. There are lots of areas to be considered how will this effect the whole of the scuba diving community, professionals, manufactures, those wanting in the sport, those all ready in the sport, our clout as a political force in conservation efforts and more Less people will get in the sport if the training/cost increases, less in means less of all those things. I also hear the arguments about better instructors and longer classes mean better divers and less accidents but are we having a problem with the accident rates really and would more training really have an effect on those.

Now that wandered a bit from the discussion of instructors should be paid more but that is my point is it has an effect on so many other areas. In the area of instructors should be paid more. It's supply and demand. In many of the sports out there that people instruct those that get paid those higher rates are ones that have done very well in competition or coached those that have done well. Golf, horse shows, dirt bikes, martial arts, ect. There is no competition for scuba, it's an activity. Activity instructors generally don't make large sums in any field or instruction.

As far as qualifications for moving into the instruction area of scuba. I know of people with less than a 100 that could teach some things and some with more than 1000 that can't teach. 100 is only part of the qualification to teach, it needs to be remembered that there are other requirements also, a 100 dives is a small part of it. It's a 100 dives minimum, prerequisite classes that involve swim test, demonstration of skills for instruction, instruction of classes in the class room, pool, and open water, written test, physicals, and more. But the most important part in my opinion is those that can relay information effectivly.

 

[Thalassamania]

...

Now that wandered a bit from the discussion of instructors should be paid more but that is my point is it has an effect on so many other areas. In the area of instructors should be paid more. It's supply and demand. In many of the sports out there that people instruct those that get paid those higher rates are ones that have done very well in competition or coached those that have done well. Golf, horse shows, dirt bikes, martial arts, ect. There is no competition for scuba, it's an activity. Activity instructors generally don't make large sums in any field or instruction.

...

I think endurodog has hit on a key factor. Diving is an activity and I'd expand endurodog's comment by saying: it is an activity that takes place, more or less, out of the sight of the public, so objective "proof" (if you will) of instructional capability or competence is rather hard to come by. This creates rather a larger chasm (in pay at least) between those instructors who have, in some way, garnered the objective "proof" (publications, endorsements, etc.) and your run of the mill, 100 dives of experience, two years and out, no proof of competence or excellence but plastic cards, instructors.

 

[rigdiver]

Unions? License SCUBA Instruction! Oh, but where will the training agency's go? And now, for more big brother

Bill

 

[Thalassamania]

well, that was an interesting read.
I may not have been diving since the first regulator was forged. but I consider myself to know a fair bit about the sport/industry. it has been my sole income for the past 3 1/2 years, and I'm surviving just damn fine. now, I dont have cable, a new car, fancy clothes or go out to dinner 5 nights a week; but I do have over 15 grand worth of dive kit and a rebreather on its way, and I have single cbrought technical training to the virgin islands.

15 grand of dive gear, interesting, but so what? At keyman prices that represents an investment of about $4K.

But what really concerns me is anyone in diving who thinks that they have "single handedly" done anything. That's rather bad juju. I know I sure haven't, everything I've done has been as much (or more) because of the folks that I was with and it was always something that WE accomplished.

I decided to go off the grid and become an instructor in 2008. I was OW certified with 12 dives logged, and I was going to be a PROFESSIONAL scuba diver! in 3 months I went from OW in Wisconsin to OWSI in St Croix. 3 1/2 years later and I've held the same job, gotten my captains license, traveled the caribbean, gotten tec certified, became a tec instructor, and built a tec program from the ground up out of my own pocket. all on the near minimum wage income of a dive pro/captain.
now, I haven't been in this business for 30+ years (I'm not that old), but I have a decent feeling of whether it's possible to make a living doing it.

That you may, but I do have booties with way more "experience" than you have.

has the industry been saturated with dumb kids like me that don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and will likely kill more people than they certify? maybe. but if you're on holiday and up for a RECREATIONAL activity, who would you rather experience it with? the kid with the ear to ear grin or the cranky old bastard that won't shut up about how much he has accomplished and "the good 'ol days" when you had to tread water for 12 hours holding a tank over your head before anybody would let you touch a regulator?

Don't know, an awful lot of people enjoy my stories, and those of my peers, I don't know of a single one of us who is cranky with students or ever asked anyone to, "tread water for 12 hours holding a tank over your head." Were ever did you get that story ... or is it just that you're not wet enough behind the ears to know when some old timer is putting you on? He (or she) must have been cranky with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

I know who I would pick. Just because one has been doing it longer than the other doesn't mean he's more in touch with what the sport is all about (yes, it is a sport). so if someone is really that fed up with the industry, then honestly, we're better off that they are retired. nobody likes having the old whiny guy on the boat.

No, it's not a sport, at leasts not for those of us who have been around long enough to know the outcome every time, and that's what people really want ... fun with a predictable outcome.

The whiny old guys don't get on the boat, it is too much trouble for them, but the brash youngsters, out to prove their chops do, and you do know what everybody hates ... don't you? Someone shouting Me! Me! Me! Look at Me! Especially when they offer a lack of predictability concerning the outcome.

 

[TMHeimer]

Lots of good and varying views here. I tend to agree mostly with TS & M in that the biggest is probably too many instructors willing to work for too little money.

 

[Mayor]

Most quality instructors will tell you the agency's will not allow enough time to teach many of the classes. They end up adding extra time further reducing the rate of pay. I have also found these instructors really care if you pass our fail because it's a reflection on them. As a student you are a swimming billboard of their teaching skills. My hope someday that the value on education will increase and these instructors can focus on teaching and not how to pay rent for the month.

 

[Peter Guy]

I'm very proud to support and second TSandM's brilliant posts regarding Scuba Training and the difference between Instruction for something like Dressage vs. instruction for Scuba. I also believe Thal's point that scuba occurs "out of sight and out of mind" for most people and thus it is very hard to actually distinguish between the "good instructor" and the "perhaps not so good" one. In the eyes of people walking in off the street, what IS the difference between instructors?

Question -- in YOUR shop, is your "resume" highlighted and made available to prospective students?

It is NOT in my shop. When I suggested that each instructor create such a resume and make it available on the shop's website, the immediate response was: "Peter, no. That wouldn't look good because some instructor's have so much more training and experience -- in particular YOU!" Gee, how about that -- I've spent a fair amount of time and money to get some very good training that no other instructor in my shop has and it is somehow "unfair" for that to be promoted or even made available to prospective students.

If that is the norm, is there really any wonder why "one can't make a living as a scuba instructor?" In fact, I know a number of people who make a living as scuba instructors but they do it by distinguishing themselves from the norm. As a result they can charge a premium (a well deserved premium in most cases) for instruction. BUT if there is no way to distinguish yourself from anyone else, then all are equal in the eyes of the customer. At that point, all instructors will be paid the same and the pay scale will be controlled by those who are at the bottom.

To go to another activity with which I used to be involved, skiing. The local ski industry teaching is similar to scuba instruction (at least MY local activity as we don't have any real ski resorts so most skiing is "day skiing"). But a big difference is that the ski instructors ARE classified differently (at the very least, Level I, II and III although I believe there are higher ones now) by skill level and experience. And guess what, those with higher "levels" get paid more and the students understand they are getting trained by "better" (i.e., instructors "worth more") instructors who rightfully demand higher pay.

What system do we have in Scuba to classify Instructors by experience and/or training? At least in the PADI system, from the students POV, what IS the difference between OWSI, MSDT, IDCSI, Master Instructor or Course Director? I contend there is NOTHING to distinguish the teaching skill and experience from one level to the next (with the possible, very tiny exception of OWSI and MSDT).

I don't have a solution to the issue raised by the latest "rantor" but it is an interesting one.

Me, I'm a hobbyist instructor with not a whole lot of scuba teaching experience. I want to believe I help create a pretty good student but who knows? How does anyone check the product I (or any other instructor) creates? How is any student to know if I'm any good?