Fatality Cabo San Lucas March 3

[nadwidny]

I have sent an email to the Alberta Underwater Council to see if they investigate the death of Albertans outside of Alberta and if they publish an Incident Report similar to the Ontario Underwater Council here. They have made some statements to the press about this accident, so perhaps they do investigate outside of the province. If they don't publish accident reports, I asked if the cause of death has been confirmed and if they could tell us what they could.

I sent them a link to this thread and invited them to participate as well. Hopefully the AUC will be able to enlighten us further on this poor woman's passing.

I am the President of the AUC and have been following this thread from the beginning. I'm not quite sure what you thought we would be able to add to this discussion. While the diver came from Alberta that is about the only connection we have. Our only knowledge of the incident has come from the same sources that everyone else on here has access to; namely, the news reports from various media. As seen by the comments from our Executive Director, our involvement with the media was just to answer a few questions from them about how air may become contaminated. We know no more than anyone else here on SB.

Also, being a small volunteer-run organization we do not have the resources to investigate incidents inside our own province, let alone from outside the country.

 

[Ayisha]

Alright, fair enough. The Ontario Underwater Council does investigate accidents within Ontario as well as, to a lesser extent, dive accidents of Ontarians outside of Ontario. It also publishes Incident Reports. I would have no way of knowing if you do similar things without asking.

 

[KC_Mike]

I am back and read through some of the replies (pesky work). I will try to keep this brief. I understand that there are several that have made no attempt to place blame anywhere, and even a few that have asked similar questions to what I have had. However I still feel very strongly that there was a whole lot of assumption in the media and on boards that will unfairly hurt the reputation of the dive shop.

Now I am going to try and use the quotes function:

1: Nope, I have absolutely no financial interest or reward possible in CO monitoring or testing. I've spent more than I wanted to on this, but I am glad I did.

The point I was trying to make is that if we were holding you to the same standard that the dive shop is being held to, you would have to produce proof (occupation and investment history) that you were in no way financially compelled or related.

2: $20/tank more to have safe air is ridiculous. Most resort fill stations fill enough tanks to cover $1,000 monitoring units for pennies/tank, and any operator can afford $300 for a personal analyzer - then make it available to customers with pride in their quality. What worked for businesses in 2001 may not work now, as now we do have new and affordable technology in place and manufacturers who want to supply. The standards have been in place longer, but the abilities are much easier now.

I used the numbers for two reasons. 1) I don't know the actual cost of monitoring systems, and 2) I wanted to see how much we would pay for guaranteed safe air. As it turns out based on the replies, most of us wouldn't pay $20 more if there was 100% guaranteed that came with it (for whatever the justification). I don't think personal analyzers are meant to be used as much as they would be in a dive shop for customer testing. They would have to also have several of them available. I'm not saying this isn't a viable, affordable solution, I do think it would be a little more for a commercial unit then $300.00.

Do you have any actual experience that a in-line CO monitoring system would be $1000 or is that just a number thrown out?

3: I'm not out to blame anyone here, but I do question if any protections were in place - or were they all just using the old, worn claim "We've never had a problem before"...?

Have you actually tried to contact them and ask them this question or seen a quote where they have actually said that?

That's fine, unless the fill station or operator drags their feet in the 20th century and ignores today's risks and affordable protection.

Actually, if I choose the operator I should have known about dragging their feed and not having adequate protection, so that still falls back onto me to accept that responsibility.

Ayisha...My response to you was more about posts asking for the dive shop to come onto SB to defend themselves. Again I think that is a ridiculous request based on the times we live in, and any legal counsel would probably advise against it.

I am all for anything that makes the recreational diving safer. I will reiterate again however that we all understand and are accountable for the risks we take with certain decisions, including diving at all, locations we dive at, facilities that we rent from, who we dive with, and decisions made at the time of diving. I have had several people tell me they will never dive because they don't want to accept the risks associated with diving, and I respect that decision. However I will accept the personal risk of diving, and all that come with it, because I truly believe that the experience and magic in exploring the underwater universe is absolutely worth it.

 

[DandyDon]

Howdy & welcome back...

I am back and read through some of the replies (pesky work). I will try to keep this brief. I understand that there are several that have made no attempt to place blame anywhere, and even a few that have asked similar questions to what I have had. However I still feel very strongly that there was a whole lot of assumption in the media and on boards that will unfairly hurt the reputation of the dive shop.

Now I am going to try and use the quotes function:

It can be a little tricky when splitting up like this, but you did well.

The point I was trying to make is that if we were holding you to the same standard that the dive shop is being held to, you would have to produce proof (occupation and investment history) that you were in no way financially compelled or related.

I don't follow you, sorry. We may ask posters at times, but generally take their word for it - with some rare exceptions. After a Maldives CO fatality with several other injures, the Report button was used on some and SB Mods discovered it was the negligent operator herself posting lies.

I used the numbers for two reasons. 1) I don't know the actual cost of monitoring systems, and 2) I wanted to see how much we would pay for guaranteed safe air. As it turns out based on the replies, most of us wouldn't pay $20 more if there was 100% guaranteed that came with it (for whatever the justification). I don't think personal analyzers are meant to be used as much as they would be in a dive shop for customer testing. They would have to also have several of them available. I'm not saying this isn't a viable, affordable solution, I do think it would be a little more for a commercial unit then $300.00.

Yes, personal analyzers can be used in shops. Analox personal O2 analyzers are found on most boats and dive shops that offer Nitrox, and their CO personal analyzer is just as tough - two year warranty, expected to last longer for personal use only. They're available retail for about $322 I think, cheaper to operators, so the cost would really be less than 50c/day per unit - one for each boat. That's 10c/diver if it only took out 5 a trip, averaging one trip a day.

Do you have any actual experience that a in-line CO monitoring system would be $1000 or is that just a number thrown out?

No, I try to stick to real figures when admonishing the dive industry for not protecting us from the risk. You can call Patty, Analox US VP at (877) SAFE AIR to confirm the costs of a Clear inline monitor. Delightful lady. A Cozumel operator recently installed new compressors with two units per compressor, one to sound at 3 ppm and the other to auto-shut off at 10, but that was not needed. One per compressor is enough. Spread that cost over the first 3 years and it's less than $1/day plus upkeep = pennies/tank.'

After a Roatan double fatality a few years ago, that resort installed a different brand, and some high end operators use other brands - but Analox is the sport leader.

Have you actually tried to contact them and ask them this question or seen a quote where they have actually said that?

No, we are getting almost no info, and calling them doesn't mean we'd get useful info anyway. The vast majority of operators are dragging feet in 20th century standards, not willing to do more, but if they happen to have been using inline and/or tank CO sensors - we'd love to see that claim, and one would think they'd love to brag. Hell, they could have shot down the family story overnight if they had testers, tested the tanks, even afterwards, found them clean and announced that. Instead - the usual nada.

For you and your son, I'd suggest owning your own CO tester to keep yourselves safe wherever you dive. More info and other personal unit options in the thread listed in my sig.

 

[nadwidny]

After a Roatan double fatality a few years ago, that resort installed a different brand, and some high end operators use other brands - but Analox is the sport leader.

By what standards? Just based on sales? After some investigation into more options I found the Oxycheq to be a better product.

 

[AggieDiver]

i am aware of the current events surrounding saturday's accident. the cause of death is not finalized, it is unfair to name the shop in mention. the shop has the highest standards for air fills, and fills tanks for more than 4 shops in the region, none of which have had a problem before or since the unfortunate event.

KC Mike, I believe this post on page 1 of the thread is where Don's questions about the Shop's testing standards came from. Don wasn't attacking the shop...the statements attacking them have all come from newspaper articles reposted here. In response to Don's questions about CO testing, the same poster gave this response:

of course, the standard is the best in town, that's why 4 shops use that air fill, the tanks that were used, were owned by the guide, and all the equipment used was the guides. there has to be another underlying reason, the tanks from the shop were filled at the same time, as were the other shops and since the date, tanks have been filled, with no problems. there is a full log of filter exchange and cleaning of the lines available.

Which you will note has an obvious lack of information about CO testing. It sounds like typical Mexican street jewelry salesman jargon..."yes yes, the best in town, everybody buys from me, etc. etc. etc." all with no information whatsoever about whether the air is actually tested at all for CO. It gives the same erroneous basis for assuming CO can't be the cause "other tanks filled at the same time didn't have problems". Other posters have pointed out why that isn't a valid assumption for determining if CO was a factor.

In case you are not familiar with this board and how it works, very rarely do we get concrete and definitive information about scuba accidents and fatalities. We would all dearly love to deal directly with unbiased investigation reports, analytical data, and firsthand eyewitness accounts of the incidents. Instead what we mostly get are error-laden newspaper stories, third hand "I heard from..." stories, anonymous experts who claim intimate knowledge of the details but who don't have any factual evidence other than their claimed knowledge, and absolute silence from the local operators and government officials who observe the Omerta code about dive accidents. This isn't specific to Mexico, it is that way in all dive locations. The locals see no benefit to publicizing the facts around dive accidents, and most of the time, the families of the deceased don't have the evidence or don't realize there is a population of divers here hungry to learn from what happened to their loved one.

So in absence of access to the facts, what we often do here is speculate. But it isn't blind speculation, it is informed and educated speculation from people with a wide variety of backgrounds. And most of us are careful to make it clear that we ARE speculating and not stating facts. The point of allowing speculation is that it allows us to learn more about what we might do differently if we found ourselves in the same situation. Even if we never find out all the details and never know a true cause, there is always something we can learn by discussing possible scenarios and thinking introspectively about how we would respond when faced with such a situation. I understand your desire to defend a shop you believe has served you well in the past, but nobody here is out to get anybody or to rush to judgement. Again, that has mostly appeared in this thread in the form of statements from the husband of the victim in the news stories reposted here, not as the words or opinions of posters here. In the absence of other evidence, we have discussed the CO possibility...which is why this board exists.

 

[cabodetails]

this is some information for this thread, this is not "official" from the dive shops in question in cabo, but we are two dive professionals that have done our best to find out what really happened on that sad day. and report what we know as facts (or hopefully to the best we can report) .
we know that the bad air theory is just an assumption. there is (or none presented both here and in canada) no evidence of contaminated air. the shop that was originally mentioned (sunshine dive and charter) had nothing to do with the tour, they didn't sell the tour, they didn't supply anything for the tour, and they didn't fill the tanks for the tours, which were conducted by "conquest divers" and the instructor Jorge. The shop "Sunshine dive and charter" was never closed, and never saw police or anything resembling authorities. The equipment from the accident was taken by the police, but never sent for testing, it is still visible at the local police station here (believe it or not), still set up. we asked a office if how they tested for the bad air, he said that he smelt it and it was bad. we do know that another boat found Ronda and at that stage the rescue boat arrived and took over the scene, upon arrival her stomach was bloated and resembled a pregnancy (this is a eye witness description). we do know that she was separated from the group, and what really happened is (and unfortunately won't know) a mystery.
We do know that the shop "sunshine dive and charter" was asked by PADI to fill in a incident report, but later they (PADI) decided it was not required as the shop didn't have anything to do with the accident. The shop was taken from the PADI website in a totally unrelated matter, it was a requirement as a IRRA member that hasn't been reviewed, but as of today, the missing standard has been addressed and sent in for verification. we do also know that the Sunshine dive and charter compressor does have a CO monitor. we will get some photos in the next few days, we have been invited to see the compressor and the set up.
we are not related to any of the dive shops mentioned. but we are two concerned professional divers here in cabo san lucas. we are trying to find out what happened so the facts can get out, and so everyone doesn't have to rely on the very wrong news reported in the media. as far as we know, the toxicology reports from canada have not proved anything (or we would of heard about it here ) or are we wrong?. we believe that CO would still be testable after a death.
we tried to speak to the rescue people, but they shy away from talking, we tried to ask if they administrated oxygen in transportation of Ronda. The CO level goes down quickly IF one is given 100% oxygen to breathe rather than air. in competition with air (21% oxygen) , CO will win out. After death CO levels will be quiet stable.
so that is what we have found till now. we hope it answer some of the unanswered questions. we will keep this post up to date if we found anything else factual.
gracias por su tiempo.

 

[Ayisha]

Ayisha...My response to you was more about posts asking for the dive shop to come onto SB to defend themselves. Again I think that is a ridiculous request based on the times we live in, and any legal counsel would probably advise against it.

I have not made ANY posts asking the dive shop to come onto SB to defend themselves or to come onto Scubaboard at all for anything. Re-read the posts before you falsely accuse someone - TWICE. I have not asked the dive shop to do anything. I have no interest in the dive shop whatsoever.

I asked the Alberta Underwater Council if they investigate fatalities, and they replied that they do not.

 

[DandyDon]

Thanks cabodetails and welcome to SB. I don't remember how Sunshine got mentioned here, but they did not fill that tanks huh? Guess there was some confusion, which happens when it's so difficult to get information. Very glad to hear that Sunshine has a CO monitor, altho I'd still test all my tanks there - still, shows that they are doing their part. They should have pics of that on their site; it'd be good for their business.

Too bad the tanks cannot be checked for CO. Does no one have a tank CO tester? I do not know how long CO stays in the blood after death. Indeed, the whole CO toxicity issue is so complex that it is not well understood.

 

[Dive-aholic]

By what standards? Just based on sales? After some investigation into more options I found the Oxycheq to be a better product.

Based on what? I did a lot of research before puchasing a CO analyzer and I came up with a different conclusion, and it wasn't based on sales.