Fatality Cabo San Lucas March 3

[Ayisha]

While they may be welcome, like most in this situation they may be advised about commenting on a public forum, just as you would be if you were going through a divorce or were involved in a lawsuit. They are caught up, wrong or right, in a very serious matter, so if you comment was meant to be an indictment for them not posting here to defend themselves, it is misguided at best.

Absolutely not. If you're not aware, the Alberta Underwater Council is a VOLUNTEER non-profit organization for the divers of Alberta. I asked if they investigate and publish reports on accidents of Albertans outside of Alberta.

They may or may not be like the counterpart in Ontario, the Ontario Underwater Council, which is why I asked. Part of the MANDATE of the OUC is to investigate fatalities in Ontario waters and to publish yearly incident reports updated throughout the year. Recently limited investigations of dive accidents of all Ontarians in ANY waters was added for 2012.

I informed the AUC of this thread because I don't know if they're aware of this thread. I am a Sport Safety Consultant for the OUC and part of my role is to inform the Council of threads like these - except of Ontarians. I also assist in investigations and provide content and write parts of the Incident Reports. I don't know if accident investigation or providing information is part of their mandate, which is why I asked. If it is, then they will provide information whenever they are ready to release it, just as the OUC.

...This leads me to believe that you (DandyDon) are involved with CO monitoring or testing with a financial interest of some sort. Either that or you have a investment interest in the same.

DandyDon has been around this board a lot longer than when the CO threads started popping up. Originally he was just curious like the rest of us about the early known incidents, but when it became obvious that cover-ups were going on, he and others became increasingly vocal. Don was probably the first diver to use a non-dive indicated CO detector and adapt it for dive use and advocate for a CO detector to be made for divers. I do not know Don personally, but I have witnessed his evolution on this board.

...I would be interested to see if it is possible to do a poll with the question being if it cost you $25 to fill a tank with guaranteed testing for pollutants and CO as opposed to $7 to fill without, how many would opt for the additional cost? This may be a result of our communities own insistence on low cost fills.

Certainly you can create a poll. You can also look at real life. In Ontario, Canada, the Ministry of Labour has been pushing for all dive shops to have an inline CO monitor. It was supposed to become law last year, but I'm not sure if it's a done deal yet. Regardless, many if not most dive shops in Ontario have inline CO monitors and the price of an air fill is an average whopping $10 CDN including tax. The $25 charge that you propose is unrealistic and unsupported by actual costs of providing clean, dry, CO free air.

 

[DandyDon]

Just to clarify for honesty...

DandyDon has been around this board a lot longer than when the CO threads started popping up. Originally he was just curious like the rest of us about the early known incidents, but when it became obvious that cover-ups were going on, he and others became increasingly vocal. Don was probably the first diver to use a non-dive indicated CO detector and adapt it for dive use and advocate for a CO detector to be made for divers. I do not know Don personally, but I have witnessed his evolution on this board.

I wished I could make that claim, but I did find some others who were using early units. Not many, but a few. The Pocket CO was already being sold in some dive shops, even tho they had no idea how divers were using it. And I have enjoyed being more vocal than instructors, experts, and manufacturers in that I do not have a professional status that could be maligned.

Oh, here is the Analox portable model for $325, free shipping: www.amronintl.com/eii-co-portable-carbon-monoxide-checker.html

The Pocket CO is under $150 including shipping at www.detectcarbonmonoxide.com/order.html but not as easy to use, and I'd want to give you a few how-tos.

 

[daniel1948]

Two separate items:

"Why would they have left a diver at depth?" The reports posted in this thread said that the diver had descended before the others. The two survivors had entered the water, became distressed, and left the water, all the while being well above the other diver. According to these posts, they did not "leave her at depth." They never reached her before being forced to exit the water.

On the frequency of CO poisoning:

Don: Thank you for reposting swam diver's post from the other thread. This is new information to me. I was going by the fact that overall, there are very few fatalities in recreational diving. So few that I regard all causes of death in recreational diving to be very rare. But this information (new to me) puts a whole new light on less-than-fatal CO poisoning.

At what level do you refuse to breathe a tank? Any detectible CO? Or some percentage? 3%? 5%?

Unfortunately I don't have a dive buddy with whom to split the cost, but I might get one anyway. If I do, I'd want recommendations on what I should consider acceptable. It would be too easy to fudge it if I don't have a firm line beforehand. Sort of like an auction, where if you have not set yourself a hard limit you can end up bidding little by little until you're paying more than you wanted to.

 

[boulderjohn]

Two separate items:
"Why would they have left a diver at depth?" The reports posted in this thread said that the diver had descended before the others. The two survivors had entered the water, became distressed, and left the water, all the while being well above the other diver. According to these posts, they did not "leave her at depth." They never reached her before being forced to exit the water.

Speaking general terms and not to this specific incident, you stay with a buddy unless doing so puts you at an unreasonable risk yourself. There have been many famous cases where divers had to make the very difficult decision to leave another diver because they themselves would be too likely to become victims if they continued to help.

One of the most famous divers in history, Sheck Exley, had to do that when he recognized that going to the assistance of friends below him would very likely kill him. On another famous incident, divers in the upper levels of a cave with a very deep vertical shaft realized during their ascent that one of their group was plummeting sown well beneath them. They realized they could never catch him (the bottom was about 900 feet), so they had to ascend. Years later, the world record holding diver for depth tried to recover that man's body. His safety diver realized from his perch about 200 feet above him that he was in trouble. He went as deep as he could, but had to give up and ascend. As it was, he almost died from the DCS brought on in large part by his initial descent beyond his limits.

 

[DandyDon]

At what level do you refuse to breathe a tank? Any detectible CO? Or some percentage? 3%? 5%?

Unfortunately I don't have a dive buddy with whom to split the cost, but I might get one anyway. If I do, I'd want recommendations on what I should consider acceptable. It would be too easy to fudge it if I don't have a firm line beforehand. Sort of like an auction, where if you have not set yourself a hard limit you can end up bidding little by little until you're paying more than you wanted to.

Pick a number between 3 & 15 - ppm, not % - then stick to it. Of the countries that do have regs, enforced or not, that's the range. Your call. For me now, I start complaining when I see 3 and getting off of the boat at 10.

Spokane is not a diving destination I know, but it's 295 miles to Tacoma and great diving. Flying there, renting tanks and fitting to my yoke valve as a hassle but very rewarding. If I lived 6 hours from Puget Sound, I'd dive it several weekends every summer - and the local divers there are so nice too. Get a 7 mil suit, hood, heavy gloves and boots, and make friends. Use your CO analyzer to help expand your circle as some of those divers think their shops do no wrong.

 

[cruiser]

At what level do you refuse to breathe a tank? Any detectible CO? Or some percentage? 3%? 5%?

3 ppm is the maximum for me. This is also the carbon monoxide limit in the UK.

 

[Ayisha]

3 ppm is the maximum for me. This is also the carbon monoxide limit in the UK.

Ontario too now, I believe. It used to be 5 PPM, but it was supposed to change to 3 PPM.

 

[daniel1948]

Pick a number between 3 & 15 - ppm, not % - then stick to it. Of the countries that do have regs, enforced or not, that's the range. Your call. For me now, I start complaining when I see 3 and getting off of the boat at 10.Spokane is not a diving destination I know, but it's 295 miles to Tacoma and great diving. Flying there, renting tanks and fitting to my yoke valve as a hassle but very rewarding. If I lived 6 hours from Puget Sound, I'd dive it several weekends every summer - and the local divers there are so nice too. Get a 7 mil suit, hood, heavy gloves and boots, and make friends. Use your CO analyzer to help expand your circle as some of those divers think their shops do no wrong.

Oops. I typed % but I meant ppm.Okay. I think what I'll probably do is complain and ask for a different tank if mine is above 3 ppm, and refuse a tank over 5 ppm.As for Puget Sound, I don't do cold water. Same as I don't do snow. Both can be beautiful. But I am a wimp when it comes to cold. My hands and feet hurt when they get cold. They hurt a lot. I think I have poor circulation to my extremities. I've hiked (in summer) with two layers of fleece, plus gloves and warm hat, alongside someone wearing shorts and no hat or gloves, and he seemed quite happy to leave his fleece in his backpack. I've also watched folks strip to their skivvies and jump into alpine tairns that still had ice on them. I would need a 100% dry suit with electric heating. But even a conventional dry suit is more gear than I want to deal with. If it wasn't for central heating I couldn't even live in Spokane. And I love the instantaneous heat in my electric car.

 

[dmoore19]

3ppm=0.000003%

 

[johnZdiver]

I did not know what level of Co was a danger to Divers until I read some of these posts.So when I heard a person say he found 12ppms in 4 of his tanks it did not mean anything to me at the time.This person has been filling with Sunshine for 2 years and bought the Analox analyzer 4 or 5 days after this accident so most likley the tanks had been refilled again and still had 12ppms.
I hope that Dan and PADI will try to assist in getting information to all its members about the importance of CO checking so this wont happen again.