How those idiots (us) run out of air

[DaleC]

What's different about beano is that she (sort of like DCBC) thinks that you should teach students as though they were going to be diving in conditions they don't face, and if you don't do so, you are falling short of a professional's duty...

Oh, I don't know about that. Whenever I've read Waynes thoughts on training I get the sense that he believes in a comprehensive approach - something that would allow a diver to be safe in a variety of situations. On the other hand; what I come away with from reading Beano's posts is that she thinks there is only one set of conditions (the one's she's used to) and that divers should only be taught to meet those.


The problem with that type of thinking is that familiarity tends to breed contempt (for the concepts we don't use). This is evident in her ideas regarding dive/gas planning. I can sort of relate because I also do the same type of dive, week in and week out, and can almost go through the planning phase as an after thought. I could forgo a lot and still do those dives in relative safety.

Take me out of those conditions however and I have to revert back to my basic planning and practices. What I can get away with in a familiar setting is not what I can get away with in an unfamiliar one.


As for going OOA, as some others have described, vintage era diving often involved a form of OOA to indicate the routine end of a dive. It really isn't that big of a deal. What isn't often transmitted though is what goes along with that sort of diving.

The diver was usually also a skilled skin diver, didn't dive particularly deep, and used small enough tanks that deco didn't become a big issue so a direct ascent was feasible. They also did direct ascents a lot and knew they were coming so the prospect of going OOA didn't have the "fear of god" tone that it does now-a-days. As N sometimes says: swim down, swim around, swim back up.

I am a modern trained diver who was NOT trained in this way but I feel fortunate to have gotten into vintage equipment diving and learned these sorts of things post certification. Along with a healthy dose of skin diving in the summer months. I dive the old way sometimes, on other occasions I go modern. Instead of feeling hampered by a comprehensive approach I feel like I simply have more tools in the tool box.

 

[tracydr]

2300 would be 5 fingers (open hand facing me) slowly opened and closed 4 times followed by 3 fingers. So 1000 is two open hands.

If it is an instabuddy regardless of the method, I usually check their gauge a couple times to make sure we are communicating correctly. Try to get a feel for their SAC rate vs mine. We have agreed on turn pressure and agreed on ascent pressures.

This is exactly how I show my air. Quite simple, even if a little narced.

---------- Post added July 8th, 2013 at 07:38 PM ----------

I slept on it and I am beginning to come around. See what y'all think.

I agree that it was a mistake to think that "I don't have enough air to do what the DM wants but I am going to stick with her". I did think that at some point. Stupid me.

At 50' stressed, when to start for the surface? -- when we know we have enough air to make a it safely, with some reserve. Maybe 500 lbs? I can do an unstressed ascent from 50' next to the line with abt 300 lbs incl. a safety stop -- unstressed. So 500 sounds maybe about right.

Assuming that we had done this, she probably would have noticed us and followed. Actually by the time I was at 500, we were together with her, heading for the mooring line. She should have led us up at an angle, at a minimum at that point. I will mention that to her.

Here's the kicker -- you'll love this. She is a DM in training, with 80 dives. We have about 60. Note to self -- find out the training level and number of dives of everyone I dive with BEFORE starting out.

Am I making progress?

Bill

Is she a warm water diver? My bet is your 60 shore dives are worth more than her 80 warm water boat dives. She probably doesn't even know how to use a drysuit, yet.

---------- Post added July 8th, 2013 at 07:47 PM ----------

Or worse has been certed for a few years and dives 10-12 times a year. Except this year. She did 20. 15 of them with an instructor having her do skills. And 5 of those were in the pool.

Yep. She started her DM training 3 weeks ago, or about that!

---------- Post added July 8th, 2013 at 07:55 PM ----------

What are the steps to master this? What we are doing now is to use the line as a visual aid and ascend next to it. We consistently do well except when there is current -- we don't want to get blown offline for the sake of practice.

Bill

Put one hand over your head.
Release air from BC.
Swim up.
Watch your bubbles.
Don't swim faster than your bubbles.
Always breathe!
Really, that's all!

 

[supergaijin]

Is she a warm water diver? My bet is your 60 shore dives are worth more than her 80 warm water boat dives. She probably doesn't even know how to use a drysuit, yet.

A valid criticism if the DMT was guiding in cold water. I have been 'pro' for a few years now and have never dived dry. I used to dive Fiordland, NZ (50ish F)in a 7mm simply because I couldn't afford a decent drysuit. Over 85% of my professional dives have been tropical- with only a couple of seasons in NZ.

80 dives is not 'experienced' however 80 dives in one area will create a good deal of experience in that area when one compares with the overall experience of 60 dives in a range of conditions.

60 dives IMO should equate to a self-sufficient diver, unless (as seems to be the case with the OP), that diver has been kept in cotton wool for all their 60 dives.

I applaud the OP for sticking with this thread, even though he received criticism. I think everyone here wishes you good luck and safe enjoyment on your future dives.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

What should we try next?

More practice. Don't get obsessive about it, and don't let it interfere with your fun times ... but maybe one dive a day, practice making a direct ascent. Keep doing it until it feels like it ain't a big deal (because it ain't, really). Once you're comfortable with making direct ascents, then try one while sharing air.

Rinse and repeat ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Tortuga68]

I do however believe that threads like these which are started by beginners, should remain as specific as possible to avoid confusion... Argument is important on discussion forums- yours is just as valid as mine. I do see yours as counterproductive for this specific thread

Well, firstly, I am not the one arguing. Secondly, it's not like I am talking about technical diving or what I would consider to be 'advanced' scuba - I just tried to provide a real world context on a couple of comments you made, and corrected your comment on Dan's post about surfacing techniques (which I see tracy, in part, repeated above).

Basic Scuba is about asking basic questions - that doesn't mean (IMO) that the answers should be 'dumbed down' or quoted from the PADI manual.

This thread is (was) 200 posts old... in typical scubaboard fashion, most of the points salient to the OP were answered in the first few pages, and I think his follow-up questions have been addressed as well. So honestly I would say the whole thread is somewhat counterproductive at this point.

Anyway, carry on.

 

[danvolker]

One thing I do if an unknown diver gets paired with my buddy team---I just assume they are going to be running low on gas at some point in the middle of our dive, so from then on, I will begin asking to see their pressure guage...I point to it, and have them show me the pressure. The whole finger thing is less reliable with people you don't know.

It takes about one second longer to do it like this....I can spare the time

 

[billt4sf]

So honestly I would say the whole thread is somewhat counterproductive at this point.

Some of the thread is still relevant to me (the OP). Other portions are interesting anyway.

- Bill

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Seems to me if the OP continues to participate in this thread, it indicates the OP is getting value from it. If the OP is posting more basic Scuba level questions which maybe side tracks... the OP is controlling the direction of the thread and there continues to be value to the OP and others who may also be reading the thread now or later seems pretty worthwhile to me

If I am the unknown diver added to someone's team... I will give information on my experience, ask some appropriate questions, get involved in the dive plan and you should be able to tell by my interaction what to expect from me. If I am not happy with the plan or the answers of the other team members I will either find another buddy, sit out the dive or dive solo. In water skills should also indicate how much someone else needs to monitor my gas consumption. I'll be happy to indicate back to you around the middle of the dive and at reasonable intervals my gas remaining. I will indicate when I get the the planned turn around pressure.

If I haven't hired a dive pro to take care of me (which isn't terribly likely) I will take care of myself, follow the dive plan, be a reasonable buddy and expect the rest of the "team" to do the same. I will not however appreciate someone taking it upon themselves to babysit me or insist on checking my gauge on a regular basis!

 

[doctormike]

Assuming that we had done this, she probably would have noticed us and followed. Actually by the time I was at 500, we were together with her, heading for the mooring line. She should have led us up at an angle, at a minimum at that point. I will mention that to her.

Here's the kicker -- you'll love this. She is a DM in training, with 80 dives. We have about 60. Note to self -- find out the training level and number of dives of everyone I dive with BEFORE starting out.

So you signed her the wrong tank pressure, she saved your life anyway, and now you are criticizing both her decision to get you to the line before the ascent AND mocking her diving credentials?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If I haven't hired a dive pro to take care of me (which isn't terribly likely) I will take care of myself, follow the dive plan, be a reasonable buddy and expect the rest of the "team" to do the same. I will not however appreciate someone taking it upon themselves to babysit me or insist on checking my gauge on a regular basis!

[rant]
One of the things I like least about most destination diving is the assumption on the part of dive ops that everyone is in need of professional assistance. I'm not comfortable with that mentality, particularly since our local diving doesn't include dive guides and divers are expected to come out of OW with the ability to plan and execute their dives without one.

When I dive with a guide on vacation, all I want is from them is to find and point out the local marine critters that I'm unfamiliar enough with to find on my own. It is neither my desire nor my comfort zone for them to assume I need "tending".

Many of the people who work regularly in places where folks go specifically to dive forget that not everyone who comes to them will either need or want to be treated like they just completed Open Water yesterday. For those who need their attention, it's a comfort and a service. For many of us who don't, it's an annoyance and an intrusion. The good ops know how discern the difference. Unfortunately, most that I've run into aren't really very good at doing so ... or just blindly follow "rules" that assume that everyone's incompetent.
[/rant]

... it would serve us all well in these conversations to keep in mind that divers come in many levels of competence, from a broad spectrum of environments and cultures, and dive for their own reasons. We tend to make judgments based on our own perspective, experience, and environmental exposure ... and often the things we see as "right" aren't really applicable to how others dive. That's why the broader our exposure to different diving styles, environments, and cultures the more applicable our advice may be ... and the more valuable to a broader audience. It's also why so many threads on ScubaBoard ... which represents a worldwide exposure to scuba ... end up in pissing matches over what often prove to be minor differences in perspective.

The only really correct answer to most questions is "it depends" ... which should lead not to conclusions, but to a broader discussion of the circumstances that spawned the question in the first place. The range of perspectives represented can often lead even the most experienced among us to conclusions they might not otherwise have ever considered ... it's what makes ScubaBoard worthwhile ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)