Goliath Grouper Dust Ups and the Odd Swallowed Diver?

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It looks like spearfishermen are more at risk of aggressive goliath grouper encounters than most divers, after all they are bringing bleeding food to the party. People will continue to shoot fish whether I think it is a good idea or not. I have heard quite a few spearfishermen say they have more problems with goliaths grabbing kills than sharks. I don't see any of this as justification for instituting a goliath season however, perhaps just cut back on shooting instead? No bloody fish, then there is no problem. Plus no one seems to be in a rush to setup a season for killing pesky sharks, least of all me, so why go after goliaths? I love shooting jewfish and sharks but only with a camera. It would be good to at least read some interesting stories about what goes on in aggressive goliath encounters. So, what have folks experienced?

10489670_10152231744768199_995185186542612790_n.jpg

Free diving with one of a pair of large goliaths on the Spiegel Grove.

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It looks like spearfishermen are more at risk of aggressive goliath grouper encounters than most divers, after all they are bringing bleeding food to the party. People will continue to shoot fish whether I think it is a good idea or not. I have heard quite a few spearfishermen say they have more problems with goliaths grabbing kills than sharks. I don't see any of this as justification for instituting a goliath season however, perhaps just cut back on shooting instead? No bloody fish, then there is no problem. Plus no one seems to be in a rush to setup a season for killing pesky sharks, least of all me, so why go after goliaths? I love shooting jewfish and sharks but only with a camera. It would be good to at least read some interesting stories about what goes on in aggressive goliath encounters. So, what have folks experienced?

10489670_10152231744768199_995185186542612790_n.jpg

Free diving with one of a pair of large goliaths on the Spiegel Grove.

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Thieving Palm Beach Jewfish - YouTube


[video=youtube_share;ApeL8czRf8I]http://youtu.be/ApeL8czRf8I?list=UU1utDku8vJRJYgBZImLyLJQ[/video]
 
Thank you for posting the clip DumpsterDiver, it really shows the setup and behaviors well. It looks like the free divers were expecting it too and attempted to intercede. Still, groupers can move very fast. I have heard of some scuba divers shooting up that way on sit on top scooters (outside of shark feeds too). It is good to see these folks trying to even the odds up by free diving. It seems goliaths may be more common on wrecks than reefs these days. I have spoken with both divers and researchers over the years who have made the same observation.

As long as we're talking about controversial topics, to some anyway, how about the following out of Key West related to Mini-Season in the Keys? What do you think about the US following the lead of most other countries and compelling harvesting of pretty much everything to be limited to free diving? It sounds like there is a need for more enforcement and the increased fees would be one way to help make that happen. I can see a basis for an exemption for Monroe county residents but on the other side believe all divers should participate in the added fees regardless of the location of their residence. All divers contribute to pressuring the resource and Keys residents cheat as well at times as do some visitors. In the end, most of us want to preserve the resource, we may just disagree on how to accomplish that.


"Here is a Letter to the Editor (at KeysNet.com)

Lobster mini-season needs more limits
Tom Casey Marathon July 26, 2014

This coming week's lobster mini-season is not mini-season; it's lobster-mobster season.

Multiple trips out with multiple limits reached are the norm with many out-of-towners (and a few locals) that come to the Keys. Poaching prior to season is quite evident already.

Hey, here's a solution. Allow lobstering from sun-up to noon. All boats must pull anchor by noon and be in motion toward shore. If you can't get your limit in five hours, too bad. Almost everyone on the water in the afternoon is going for their second or third "limit."

Doesn't the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission call this sport season? What's so sporting about using scuba tanks? Free-diving is sporting, especially in the gulf. Ban scuba use for mini-season. Abalone diving in cold, rough, murky Northern California is free-diving only. That's sporting.

So fishing licenses for out-of-state visitors cost more than resident licenses. Makes sense, but lobster stamps are the same for residents and mobsters. Why?

Raise the lobster tag fee to $20 for out-of-staters or even out-of-Monroe County people. For example, if you live in Broward and dive in Broward, if you want to dive in the Keys, pay more to do so. Hey, make mini-season a separate license fee, and use all that money to add 50 or more patrol boats.

Use private boats with uniformed officers. Fantasy Fest is nothing compared to the law-breaking that goes on during mini-season.

It also makes sense to have punch tags for mini-season lobster, like California does for abalone. Punch your tag for every lobster brought on board. You have 12 punch holes for each license holder. If you are stopped without punching, you forfeit your catch and license, and have your boat impounded for 90 days, in addition to fines.

Why not have a maximum boat limit -- six per diver and 24 maximum per boat no matter how many divers are on board. Many mobsters load the boat with non-divers (with gear and licenses) and plunder multiple limits."
 
Thank you for posting the clip DumpsterDiver, it really shows the setup and behaviors well. It looks like the free divers were expecting it too and attempted to intercede. Still, groupers can move very fast. I have heard of some scuba divers shooting up that way on sit on top scooters (outside of shark feeds too). It is good to see these folks trying to even the odds up by free diving. It seems goliaths may be more common on wrecks than reefs these days. I have spoken with both divers and researchers over the years who have made the same observation.

As long as we're talking about controversial topics, to some anyway, how about the following out of Key West related to Mini-Season in the Keys? What do you think about the US following the lead of most other countries and compelling harvesting of pretty much everything to be limited to free diving? It sounds like there is a need for more enforcement and the increased fees would be one way to help make that happen. I can see a basis for an exemption for Monroe county residents but on the other side believe all divers should participate in the added fees regardless of the location of their residence. All divers contribute to pressuring the resource and Keys residents cheat as well at times as do some visitors. In the end, most of us want to preserve the resource, we may just disagree on how to accomplish that.


"Here is a Letter to the Editor (at KeysNet.com)

Lobster mini-season needs more limits
Tom Casey Marathon July 26, 2014

This coming week's lobster mini-season is not mini-season; it's lobster-mobster season.

Multiple trips out with multiple limits reached are the norm with many out-of-towners (and a few locals) that come to the Keys. Poaching prior to season is quite evident already.

Hey, here's a solution. Allow lobstering from sun-up to noon. All boats must pull anchor by noon and be in motion toward shore. If you can't get your limit in five hours, too bad. Almost everyone on the water in the afternoon is going for their second or third "limit."

Doesn't the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission call this sport season? What's so sporting about using scuba tanks? Free-diving is sporting, especially in the gulf. Ban scuba use for mini-season. Abalone diving in cold, rough, murky Northern California is free-diving only. That's sporting.

So fishing licenses for out-of-state visitors cost more than resident licenses. Makes sense, but lobster stamps are the same for residents and mobsters. Why?

Raise the lobster tag fee to $20 for out-of-staters or even out-of-Monroe County people. For example, if you live in Broward and dive in Broward, if you want to dive in the Keys, pay more to do so. Hey, make mini-season a separate license fee, and use all that money to add 50 or more patrol boats.

Use private boats with uniformed officers. Fantasy Fest is nothing compared to the law-breaking that goes on during mini-season.

It also makes sense to have punch tags for mini-season lobster, like California does for abalone. Punch your tag for every lobster brought on board. You have 12 punch holes for each license holder. If you are stopped without punching, you forfeit your catch and license, and have your boat impounded for 90 days, in addition to fines.

Why not have a maximum boat limit -- six per diver and 24 maximum per boat no matter how many divers are on board. Many mobsters load the boat with non-divers (with gear and licenses) and plunder multiple limits."

Many thousands and thousands of commercial traps, walking all over the bottom in storms destroying reef and everything else, yet you want to ban scuba diving, penalize residents from other counties...?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thieving Palm Beach Jewfish - YouTube


[video=youtube_share;ApeL8czRf8I]http://youtu.be/ApeL8czRf8I?list=UU1utDku8vJRJYgBZImLyLJQ[/video]

Have known more than a few families that have BIG friendly dogs.....and if they do an outdoor cookout, in the back yard, and put great smelling hamburgers or steaks some place where the Dog can reach the food----the dog IS going to end up eating steak or hamburger :)

Shooting a fish near a Goliath, is essentially like trying to take food out of the dinner plate of a big dog.....an awful lot of big dogs are going to assert their claim on the food in their bowl.....I suggest the fish close to a Jewfish, are HIS fish.....and when you shoot one of his fish--and think you are going to pull it away --that is essentially trying to pull food out of the dog-dish. Not really the smartest behavior.

When you are not trying to steal their food, dogs can be very sweet and affectionate to humans.....when you are not trying to steal their food, Jewfish can be very social and friendly to humans.... It is possible they just don't like Dumpster Diver or RickI...... :)
 
Why have so many countries banned scuba diving for spearfishing and other types of harvesting? What makes these reasons less valid in the US? I don't agree with everything in the letter to the Editor at KeysNet.com by the way but do think it is worth discussing. You make a good point about traps, orphan or otherwise. Should quantities be reduced to lessen impacts on bottom communities? Have such impacts been evaluated yet?
 
Why have so many countries banned scuba diving for spearfishing and other types of harvesting? What makes these reasons less valid in the US? I don't agree with everything in the letter to the Editor at KeysNet.com by the way but do think it is worth discussing. You make a good point about traps, orphan or otherwise. Should quantities be reduced to lessen impacts on bottom communities? Have such impacts been evaluated yet?


A bit simplistic don't you think?

In most of the places where spearfishing is freedive only, the depths normally worked are shallow.
In Palm Beach, while we do have reefs south of the Palm Beach inlet that are 50 and 60 feet deep, a huge area of Palm Beach is 80 to 100 feet deep and more, and mandating that hunting of fish or lobster would need to be on snorkel rather than tank, would ONLY cause a 99% elimination of lobster related Dive Tourism to these deeper areas. The fact is, it would kill the dive tourism even South of the inlet, because most scuba divers WILL NOT freedive....most don't know how, don't want to know how, and most dive instructors are pathetic as freedivers ( meaning they are not fit to teach snorkeling to their scuba students).

So your idea ends the lobster season for South florida scuba divers, yet as DD mentions, you are just fine with the commercials guys raping the bottom with miles of traps......
And I guess we can add to this, that you are attempting to get anecdotal accounts of Goliaths that have acted aggressively to divers---i.e., you are looking for ammunition you might use for getting a harvesting season for Goliaths ( even though they can't be eaten due to toxins)--you are potentially trying to compare them to pests that need to be eliminated/culled.

RickI, I am begging you....Please don't put me in a position where I have to be on the same side with Dumpster Diver !!! :)
 
No, not really, it is a valid observation which remains to be properly refuted.

There is a whole world of conditions, depths, bathymetries and hunting areas out there with a significant portion of it with the restrictions on harvesting with scuba gear to say they are all shallow. That is an oversimplification. How has tourist diving in the Bahamas survived the ban on harvesting with scuba gear all these decades? They don't allow spearfishing close to shore there by the way.

I made it clear I don't support a season on goliath grouper, as I don't support spearfishing, at least in heavily impacted SE Florida. You keep bringing up a season on goliaths though, is that something you support? It is interesting that one of the larger free diving shops with a vast amount of spearfishing gear in located in northern Palm Beach County. How is this possible?

Countries ban scuba harvesting over concern for resource preservation. Florida has numerous reasons to be concerned about resource preservation as well. A ban of harvesting on scuba gear is only one consideration but a popular one elsewhere for whatever reasons. How does scuba diving as an industry survive in these countries?

I got my dive instructors in 1976 and have been in and out of the industry since 1972, so I am familiar with preferences and general demographics. At the same time, people can and will adapt given direction.

I am pretty busy right now and really don't have time to argue points which I never supported, re: lobster traps all over the place and goliath seasons?

Instead of arguing against resource preservation, what are your ideas for keeping and perhaps even expanding the health, diversity and abundance of what we have? Keeping things as they as they are doesn't seem to be working too well although it is the easiest and most comfortable option.
 
Recent Science reports on the Jewfish, show that mercury and other toxic compound levels to be so high, that they could NOT be sold for human consumption, meaning that any harvesting is ONLY an action meant to eradicate a species that the spear fisherman or fisherman are competing with......

To be fair, the above is not accurate. There are numerous fish species commercially available for human consumption that are above the 0.30 μg/g (ppm) threshold set by the EPA. For reference, the WHO has established a higher mercury advisory level set at 1.0 μg/g.

As a baseline, mercury from goliath grouper in U.S. waters averaged across all sampled sizes was 0.63 μg/g.

King mackerel: 0.73
Shark (combined): 0.979
Swordfish: 0.995
Tilefish: 1.45
Chilean sea bass: 0.354
Bluefish: 0.368
Grouper (all species combined): 0.48
Spanish mackerel: 0.454
Orange roughy: 0.571
Sablefish: 0.361
Albacore tuna (canned): 0.35
Bigeye tuna: 0.689
Yellowfin tuna: 0.354

Large, long-lived fish species in general have high mercury concentrations. It is what it is.

Will eating fish with mercury levels higher than the EPA limit (or higher WHO limit) hurt or kill you? Not necessarily. It can present issues if one eats significant quantities over time, are pregnant, etc. But it generally is not a concern for most people given average seafood consumption habits. Further, if it were deemed a critical concern, there are ways to mitigate these issues, such as targeting subadult specimens of goliath grouper. A recent study indicated that the majority of goliath grouper <33" in length had mercury concentrations below the 0.3 &#956;g/g EPA threshold. But obviously that is not a wise or sustainable option.

IMHO, there are MANY valid reasons why conservation measures for goliath grouper should be maintained. My posting the above should not be construed as support for opening up the species to harvest or anything else beyond what it is - I just wanted to share some simple facts. I just personally don't agree with the scare tactics regarding mercury in goliath grouper, especially when advocates ignore the reality of mercury in fish in general. No need to go there IMHO....

Cheers,
Mike
 
No, not really, it is a valid observation which remains to be properly refuted.

There is a whole world of conditions, depths, bathymetries and hunting areas out there with a significant portion of it with the restrictions on harvesting with scuba gear to say they are all shallow. That is an oversimplification. How has tourist diving in the Bahamas survived the ban on harvesting with scuba gear all these decades? They don't allow spearfishing close to shore there by the way.

I made it clear I don't support a season on goliath grouper, as I don't support spearfishing, at least in heavily impacted SE Florida. You keep bringing up a season on goliaths though, is that something you support? It is interesting that one of the larger free diving shops with a vast amount of spearfishing gear in located in northern Palm Beach County. How is this possible?

Countries ban scuba harvesting over concern for resource preservation. Florida has numerous reasons to be concerned about resource preservation as well. A ban of harvesting on scuba gear is only one consideration but a popular one elsewhere for whatever reasons. How does scuba diving as an industry survive in these countries?

I got my dive instructors in 1976 and have been in and out of the industry since 1972, so I am familiar with preferences and general demographics. At the same time, people can and will adapt given direction.

I am pretty busy right now and really don't have time to argue points which I never supported, re: lobster traps all over the place and goliath seasons?

Instead of arguing against resource preservation, what are your ideas for keeping and perhaps even expanding the health, diversity and abundance of what we have? Keeping things as they as they are doesn't seem to be working too well although it is the easiest and most comfortable option.


Hi RickI,
To be clear, I am dead set AGAINST a season of Goliath harvest...I think this is something embraced only by the dim-witted that ride the short bus , of the fishing or spearfishing camps.

As to scuba spearfishing, I think it can be done correctly, and be by far the most ecologically valid manner of harvesting fish for our consumption. Most of the scuba spear fisherman I know or have dived with, fit into this category....On the other hand, I have met some spearos that can do great damage with the tools they have, and that take pride in their trophy fish, and could care less about removal of the best genetic material for breeding and continuance of a species. Shooting all the biggest groupers or biggest hog snappers and going for trophies, would seem to be something that needs to be dealt with, rather than a call for a law that would effectively eliminate responsible personal harvest by speargun.

---------- Post added July 29th, 2014 at 10:43 AM ----------

To be fair, the above is not accurate. There are numerous fish species commercially available for human consumption that are above the 0.30 &#956;g/g (ppm) threshold set by the EPA. For reference, the WHO has established a higher mercury advisory level set at 1.0 &#956;g/g.


Mike, have you seen this very recent science article sitting on the JDC web server?

Goliath Grouper | Jupiter Dive Center

One relevant portion of it :
Facts about mercury contamination in fish relative to human diet

  • FDA advises not to eat Shark, Swordfish, King Mackerel or Tilefish. FDA &#8220;action level is 1.0 ppm&#8221; (level at which FDA can remove item from shelves and stop interstate commerce), but 0.5 ppm is generally considered the threshold for &#8220;very high&#8221; mercury concentrations. Concentrations above 0.5 occur in large King Mackerel, large sharks, some Tuna, Orange Roughy, Swordfish, Marlin and Tilefish What You Need to Know About Mercury in Fish and Shellfish (Brochure)(and Goliath Grouper).
  • The &#8220;2013 Florida Fish Advisory&#8221; published by the Florida Department of Health in cooperation with the Florida Department of Environmental Protection and Agriculture and Consumer Services, and the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission advises that children and pregnant women not eat: Blackfin Tuna, Jack Crevalle, Cobia, Barracuda from S Fla, King Mackerel, Little Tunny, and shark (all species). They advise that no one eat King Mackerel over 31 inches, or any coastal shark species over 43 inches http://www.floridahealth.gov/prevention-safety-and- wellness/healthy-weight/nutrition/seafood-consumption/_documents/2013-advisory- brochure.pdf


  • Adult Goliath Grouper mercury levels (~1.0 to 3.3 ppm) are as high as or higher than those of restricted species&#8212;levels are so high that mercury-induced lesions were found in adult Goliath Grouper liver, kidney and gills (Adams & Sonne 2013).
  • Thus, Goliath Grouper is not a viable fishery species, at least not the adults (> 4 ft total length)
 
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