Well......it happened again! :(

[Scuba Duffer]

So...when speed boaters are anywhere, that means no one else is entitled to safely enjoy the same area...?

Why would boats need to come to 50 feet of the dock where that fateful dive allegedly occurred? If conditions are bad, isn't it possible for speed boats to check their speed?

Please don't misunderstand me: I'm not trying to start a flame here, just getting frustrated at the sense that might is right....

Of course everyone has the right to enjoy the water. But, unless changes are made to regulations and licensing, you also have to consider the dangers of diving in areas of high boat traffic.

No it's not right that boats travel that fast and in a lot of cases, don't know what a dive flag is. But what is less right, IMHO, is the fact that any adult can drive my boat right now - no test - no license required. 32 feet, 11,000 pounds, capable of 60kms/hr and can easily handle rough water that would stop you from seeing a dive flag.

Is the fact that anyone can operate a boat like this with almost no experience or training the boaters fault? I don't think it is. If you just gave a new driver the keys - no training - no test - is it his fault he didn't stop at the stop sign?

Eventually, enough tragedies like this will happen and something will be done about it. Until then, and probably even after that, you won't catch me shore diving in areas of high boat traffic.

Do boaters have more right to the water than divers.....absolutely not. But, for me, I'm not diving BBP or the Morrison from the shore. There is just too much recreational boat traffic. The problem is, if I get into that arguement, the boat is gonna win. Thats not right and it's not fair, but it is the reality of the situation!

 

[starfish365]

Sorry I didn't want to read all throught again but I found this in the manual for boaters under nautical rules and regulations:

Dangerous Driving
Section 249(1)b of the Criminal Code of Canada provides:

“Everyone commits an offence who operates a vessel or any water skis, surf-board, water sled or other towed object on or over any of the internal waters of Canada or the territorial sea of Canada, in a manner that is dangerous to the public, having regard to all the circumstances, including the nature and condition of those waters or sea and the use that at the time is or might reasonably be expected to be made of those waters or sea;”

Everyone one who commits an offence under this section may be sentenced to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.

If the offence caused bodily harm to another person, the length of imprisonment may be up to ten years.

If the offence caused the death of another person, the person who committed the offence is liable to imprisonment for a term of up to fourteen years.

Section 250(1) of the Criminal Code of Canada also provides:

Another responsible person must be on board a vessel to keep watch on any person being towed.


Also found this link : http://www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca/obs-bsn/sbg-gsn/diving_e.htm

this last link seems to provide the information but doesn't indicate a strict distance to keep away from. In our OW classes you learn the distance a boat must remain from a dive flag but the boaters are not taught this restriction at all. This needs to change.

 

[starfish365]

**

 

[starfish365]

The debate should be not if boaters and divers can co-exist in the same waters but how can boaters get educated as to the rules and regulations. I know alot of boaters don't adhere to these regulations, but, in all honesty if a boater is required to acknowledge the fact that yes he does know the rules of another boat participating in underwater operations he recognizes what the flags are and what they mean. The dive flag also needs to be a part of their education and there needs to be more vigilence on the part of divers as well.

When you dive cold water you don a thicker wetsuit. If the water is a little choppy you can bet a dive flag is not easily seen - so - why not use a larger and more easily identified flag. Maybe the dive flag needs to be bigger in all dive situations. With the words "Keep back .....ft - diver below" in letters large enough to be read at some distance.

I think as a concerned society we need to concentrate on making the solution not complaining about the problem. Things are not going to change unless an attempt is made to make it change.

Just a thought. And I intend on contacting the Coast Guard and Ministry to inquire how one could get changes made. If they can at all. But you don't know unless you try right? Will keep you all posted.

 

[S.O.S.]

If a boat is powering downwind towards your 5 foot tall flourescent pink "KEEP BACK" guess what they see...maybe...a thin stick.

 

[starfish365]

http://www.floridascubahound.com/dive_flag_laws.htm

found another link

 

[Groundhog246]

starfish365, I agree in general with what you're saying. While the red/white divers flag is found on the CCG web site and in the safe boating guide, it has no legal standing in Canada (exception being Tobermorry in the park , where there are park regulations in effect and enforced, there may be other places that I am not aware of).

In the incident that started this discussion, the boat was approaching a Government Dock. Docks are generally where boats tie up, not places where one might reasonably expect swimmers or divers. Many areas where we boat have lots of signs posted prohibiting swimming or diving (I don't think they meant scuba, but who knows) off the docks. If one assumes the driver of this particular boat knew the area well, then maybe he/she might expect divers, but no way to confirm that until they locate the baot and who was in control.
I've been boating a lot longer than I've been diving and while I can say I've long known what the flag meant, I'm not sure I'd have been looking for it as carefully before. As a real life example, we sailed out of Goderich for a couple of years and it wasn't till after we changed home ports that I took up diving and discovered there were dive sites and frequently divers in an area we frequently sailed. I can't recall ever having seen a flag on a buoy. Maybe there were never any there (we "sailed" on windy days, which usually meant waves and would mean reduced visibility for diving) or maybe I/we just never saw them.
While laws that set out fair rules for both divers and boaters would be good, we're somewhat in the position of motorcyclists. We might be right, but in case of a collision we're gonna lose. Motorcycles are required by law to turn on headlights when on the road (even in daylight hours) to improve their visibility, wise bikers use their high beams in the daytime. We need to do the same. It's not enough to stick up a small flag on a float and say okay we did our part, we need to make a greater effort to put out visible markers. I'm thinking something larger, rigid and probably a strobe. And I think if I dive the dock at Big Bay Point or similar again, I will endeavor to do so in a larger group, where at least one person can remain topside to watch for and warn off boaters. Certainly my handheld VHF will now be considered part of my dive gear, even if I need to buy a second for my boat.

 

[88AstroMan]

"I think as a concerned society we need to concentrate on making the solution not complaining about the problem. Things are not going to change unless an attempt is made to make it change."

Starfish, you are correct, there are no gains in complaining, the problem MUST be addressed! It has to be fixed, how should we, as a group, go about fixing it? Something HAS to be done.

 

[bdarcy]

Guess I have been lucky and didn't have my first experience with a boat ignoring my dive flag until this year. I was diving at the lighthouse in Tobermory when the Parks Canada boat came within 10 feet of my flag. Seems that they wanted to be sure all the divers that were doing open water checkouts had their blue park tags. Good thing all new divers on their open water checkouts are good at buoyancy or there might have been an accident that no one Parks Canada could have foreseen. Since this is a shore dive not quite sure the need for the boat but it was early in the season and they probably want to take it out. I complained at the park office and was told that the 150 feet was just a guide line and there was no law preventing boats from approaching the flag. Now I know why they insist on a dive flag within the park, it makes it easier to find the divers to check for tags

 

[Ontario Diver]

"I think as a concerned society we need to concentrate on making the solution not complaining about the problem. Things are not going to change unless an attempt is made to make it change."

Starfish, you are correct, there are no gains in complaining, the problem MUST be addressed! It has to be fixed, how should we, as a group, go about fixing it? Something HAS to be done.

True enough. This is the second diver death in Ontario this year due to being hit by a boat. That will probably cause a coroner's inquest to be called.

Other than that, Transport Canada is responsible for the Canadian Shipping Act and the Collision Regulations.

The Honourable Jean-C. Lapierre
Minister of Transport
House of Commons
Parliament Buildings
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada
K1A 0A6

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Telephone: (613) 995-7691

Fax: (613) 995-0114

Email: Lapierre.J@parl.gc.ca


Or

Honourable Harinder Takhar
Ministry of Transportation
Corporate Correspondence Unit
3rd Floor, Ferguson Block
77 Wellesley Street West
Toronto, Ontario M7A 1Z8

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/feedback/minister.htm