Cave and Wreck diving

[oldschoolto]

If they are dead.... They are dead... It really does not matter if it's one or a thousand bodies... 6 months or 6 years or 600 years for that matter... Is there some magic number that makes one OK and the other taboo ? Sounds like if you think it's OK, then it's fine and If you don't, It should be against the law ??? I'll dive where ever I like... And don't give a rat's a$$ if you or any others don't like it...

Jim....

 

[Bennno]

Salem Express, shocking wreck diving in Red Sea.
Eerie images from the deep reveals possessions from Red Sea tragedy
The Haunting Red Sea Wreck of the Salem Express | Urban Ghosts
http://www.leisurepro.com/blog/scub...gypts-controversial-wreck-dive-salem-express/
The Right Blue: The Salem Express wreck -- a human tragedy
Salem Express – The Red Sea Wreck Project
Wreck Diving in Egypt: The Salem Express - DIVE.in Scuba Magazine​

In contrast, this one site does say it is illegal to penetrate the wreck.

Salem Express Dive Site – Map & Review of Salem Express in Safaga, Red Sea​

Ok, so I skimmed over these articles. They all seem to have been written by people who dove there once or a few times. They're travel reports, no? Most of them don't even adress entering the wreck.

I don't know if you and Bob realize it, but when the talk about the 'controversy' articles they are talking about whether trips to the wreck should be allowed altogether, without entering the wreck. There were a bunch of people, customers and instructors, that didn't want to go to that wreck.

 

[Bennno]

If they are dead.... They are dead... It really does not matter if it's one or a thousand bodies... 6 months or 6 years or 600 years for that matter... Is there some magic number that makes one OK and the other taboo ? Sounds like if you think it's OK, then it's fine and If you don't, It should be against the law ??? I'll dive where ever I like... And don't give a rat's a$$ if you or any others don't like it...

Jim....

It doesn't matter to you whether it is one dead person or a thousend? Even if it's 6 month ago?

You must be some though guy if you can have a 'fun' dive while looking at shoes, kids toys and clothes and don't care.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

John, I found a few more articles in German that say it's a grave and you're not allowed to enter but they don't give any sources either. I go by what I was told when I lived there. Why would people have lied about it being closed?


The Thistlegorn went down 80 years ago with 9 people. The Salem is a 'fresh' grave and went down 20 year ago with 500-1000 people, if not more. To me, that's quite a difference. If it really isn't forbidden to enter the wreck, it should be.

Fine, that's a valid opinion, and you have every right to express it as such.

Accusing someone of doing something illegal is a whole different matter, and should never be done ... PARTICULARLY in the spectacularly public way you did ... without knowing the facts, and being in a position to use them to back up your accusation.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Ok, so I skimmed over these articles. They all seem to have been written by people who dove there once or a few times. They're travel reports, no? Most of them don't even adress entering the wreck.

I don't know if you and Bob realize it, but when the talk about the 'controversy' articles they are talking about whether trips to the wreck should be allowed altogether, without entering the wreck. There were a bunch of people, customers and instructors, that didn't want to go to that wreck.

Where there are dive shops, there is controversy. There are also ... always ... people expressing strong opinions disguised as facts. The facts are that it is not illegal ... but that there is a faction of people out there who would wish to make it so.

If you feel that strongly about it, then don't go. But do not make up stories about how it's illegal ... it's not. And, in fact, your comment about it only being liveaboards isn't factually correct either. There were several day boats out there when I dived it ... and the day boats mostly come from Safaga.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It doesn't matter to you whether it is one dead person or a thousend? Even if it's 6 month ago?

You must be some though guy if you can have a 'fun' dive while looking at shoes, kids toys and clothes and don't care.

Who said anything about "don't care"?

There are parts of the ship that are sealed off. You respect that, and don't attempt to go there.

Everyone in our group who dived there was respectful ... both during and after the dive.

You're entitled to believe otherwise. But express your beliefs as opinion ... because that's a whole different perspective than accusations of illegal activity.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

FWIW - many of the wrecks we dived on in the Red Sea went down with loss of life. Same can be said for other places, like the Great Lakes. People dive them all the time.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[oldschoolto]

It doesn't matter to you whether it is one dead person or a thousend? Even if it's 6 month ago?

You must be some though guy if you can have a 'fun' dive while looking at shoes, kids toys and clothes and don't care.

So what is/are the magic numbers... They all get the same respect when I dive a wreck...

Jim...

 

[boulderjohn]

It doesn't matter to you whether it is one dead person or a thousend? Even if it's 6 month ago?

You must be some though guy if you can have a 'fun' dive while looking at shoes, kids toys and clothes and don't care.

When I dived at Truk Lagoon, it was the first time I had ever dived in a wreck in which people lost their lives. It was a powerful experience for me. Swimming through a hole in the hull created by a torpedo into a room in which countless people died is not something you ignore. It affects you.

I have also visited battle sites in which thousands of people died. It had a similar impact on me as I contemplated the significance of those deaths and the evanescence of our few years on Earth.

Why do you assume that people who go into such wrecks don't give a damn about the people who died there? People go to the mass grave yards in France and gaze out at row after row after row of people who died in one battle in WWII. They do not go there because they don't care. As a soccer coach leading a team of 16 year old boys on a trip through Europe, I took them to Dachau. These typical 16-year old "we don't give a damn about anything" boys learned very much to give a damn about those thousands of souls who died there.

There is something awe-inspiring and soul-filling about visiting such places. It is by no means a lark, and those who think it is soon learn differently.

 

[Bennno]

And, in fact, your comment about it only being liveaboards isn't factually correct either. There were several day boats out there when I dived it ... and the day boats mostly come from Safaga.

Diving the wreck, yes, but not entering the wreck. I guided a ton of divers at the Salem, but we never went into the wreck. I don't have a reason to believe that I was given wrong information by the locals.

Who said anything about "don't care"?

Jim said: It really does not matter if it's one or a thousand bodies... 6 months or 6 years or 600 years for that matter...

So what is/are the magic numbers... They all get the same respect when I dive a wreck...

I don't have a number. I don't know whether you have seen the Salem or not, but it's not pretty. There is not much coral or fish. The sand around the wreck is littered with suitcases, shoes, clothes and other personal items. When I worked in Safaga, the Salem looked as if she had gone down just a couple of years ago... and it's just a normal, modern ferry boat.

Diving to a historic battleship from 80 or 100 year ago, I can understand. Diving to a ferry that 'just' sunk with a 1000 people on board and you can still see all their stuff, I don't understand. Imagine this had happened closer to your home and 1000 of your neighbours, co-workers, friends and family had died in the 90s. Now imagine tons of tourist come to see the grave of your friends. Nobody would want that.